§ THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are aware that, arising out of the recent withdrawal of the Tithe Bill and the proposal to set up a Royal Commission, and notwithstanding the statement made by the Leader of the House when he announced the withdrawal of the Bill, tithe-payers in certain parts of the country are urging that, until the decision of the Government following the Report of the Royal Commission has been made, they should be relieved of payment of a substantial proportion of the tithe rentcharge, and that tithe-payers' associations are urging their members to make only part payment; and whether, in order to remove any misunderstandings as to the effect of the Government's decision, an authoritative pronouncement may be made that the liability for the payment of tithe rentcharge remains unaffected by the withdrawal of the Tithe Bill or the setting up of a Royal Commission.
§ The most reverend Primate said: My Lords, I hope I may take a few minutes of your Lordships' time in explaining the reason why I have put down this Question. It will be within your recollection that a short time ago the noble and learned Viscount, the Leader of the 257 House, made a statement in which he announced that the Government had decided to withdraw the Tithe Bill and to appoint a Royal Commission to make a full inquiry into the whole subject. In explaining this somewhat sudden and unexpected change of policy the noble and learned Viscount said that the reason was that the Bill had received very little support either from the tithe-owners or the tithe-payers, and that therefore it was not thought lit to proceed with it further. I am well aware of the objections taken by the tithe-payers, but in regard to the tithe-owners I want on this occasion to make their position quite clear, and to suggest that it was scarcely in accordance with fact to imply that it was due to the lack of support on the part of the tithe-owners that the Bill was withdrawn.
§ It will be within the recollection of the Government and possibly of your Lordships that, as representing the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty, who are the trustees for administering and collecting the whole ecclesiastical tithe in England, I offered no opposition to the Bill whatsoever. It is true, and it could not have been expected, that I did not welcome it with enthusiasm. The Governors had pursued their policy of conciliation and making voluntary concessions in cases of real hardship where there was reason to believe that failure to pay was due to inability, and not to unwillingness or refusal. They had reason to believe that that policy, carefully pursued, might have met the exigencies of the situation. They noted that within the last nine months the tide of payment had been slowly but steadily increasing, and therefore they had no particular reason for any Bill at all.
§ Even with regard to what your Lordships may remember is the second clause, facilitating methods of recovering tithe, they did not ask for that clause. They saw that it would be of great advantage in certain respects, but they believed that the main reason for its being introduced was the one which the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack stated, to secure that the administration of the law was not brought into public contempt. Therefore there was no enthusiasm for the Bill for the very obvious reasons I have given. I could not very well welcome with both 258 hands a further reduction of the already sadly diminished tithe rentcharge for the incumbents of this country. Moreover, I will go a step further and say that I doubt very much whether if on that occasion I had betrayed great enthusiasm for the Bill that would have been greatly welcomed by His Majesty's Government. That would have been taken as indicating that this was in the nature of a Bill passed in the interest of the tithe-owners. I want to make it quite clear that if the Government have seen fit to withdraw the Bill and appoint a Royal Commission they must not ascribe that to the fact that there was very lukewarm support given to the introduction of the Bill by the tithe-owning interests.
§ Further, I want to point out that one of the reasons which led the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty to offer no opposition was that we greatly preferred the Bill to the holding of an inquiry, because we believed that if an inquiry were held it would obviously give rise to a belief on the part of reluctant tithe-payers that they might, pending the result of such an inquiry, withhold payment of their tithe, and we had an assurance from the Government that really there was very little to discover in the way of facts which they did not know already. The apprehensions which we felt as to the consequences of an inquiry are beginning to show signs of being justified. I am informed—and this is a matter on which I shall be grateful if the Government could give further information—the tithe-payers in different parts of the country are now expressly asking that they should be relieved of payment because as the result of the appointment of this Commission it may prove to be unjust that they should pay at all, and during the interval they see no reason why they should pay.
§
I am informed that tithe-payers' associations are recommending that there should be legislation providing some kind of moratorium. I shall venture to read one of these resolutions because it is not without a certain touch of humour:
That this committee, in view of the delay in providing a remedy for the tithe-payers' grievance which is likely to ensue from the appointment of a Royal Commission, earnestly requests the Government to extend to tithe rentcharge the same principle which the Government adopted in regard to the American debt whereby 20 per cent. only is paid as a 'token payment,' and forthwith to pass legislation instituting as a temporary measure a moratorium re-
259
stricting recovery of tithe rentcharge by distress to 50 per cent. of the amount claimed.
There is a certain humour in that suggestion, but it indicates the spirit which is very much abroad, and I know that in certain quarters tithe-payers are being recommended to withhold a very large portion of the tithe which is due precisely because the whole matter is said to be sub judice and therefore it is not right that they should be expected to pay.
§ That obviously increases very greatly the difficulties and hardships under which tithe-owning incumbents are placed. And may I be forgiven if I remind your Lordships that this is a matter which affects the daily bread of thousands of admirable servants—servants of God and I hope of the people throughout the country—and it would be a very great addition to their difficulties if the idea spread that, because the Government have ordered an inquiry to be made, that is to be a justification for withholding payment of what is due to them. Therefore, what I desire to ask the Government is that they should make it plain beyond cavil that the change of policy, the appointment of a Royal Commission, furnishes no sort of justification for withholding the payment of justly due tithe rentcharge, that they have no intention of bringing in any such interim legislation as is desired, and that they will do everything in their power to facilitate the administration of the law-pending the report of the Royal Commission.
§ I am not criticising the policy of the Government in appointing this Royal Commission. I hope it may do some good. I hope it may clear away misunderstandings and, I must add, misrepresentations. which have been very current throughout the country, and if it can result in a speedier and just plan for the redemption of tithe rentcharge I am sure tithe-owners throughout the country will be willing, even at the cost of some sacrifice, to be rid of the unwelcome task of collecting tithe rentcharge and to have a final settlement. But meanwhile I may say that the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty, undeterred by the difficulties which have not been diminished by the change of policy of the Government, propose to continue the policy of meeting every hard case with voluntary concession, and I venture from this place to make an appeal to all fair-minded land- 260 owners and tithe-payers throughout the country that they will on their part during this interval do everything they can to assist the collection of tithe rent-charge in a just and conciliatory manner.
§ I do not expect the Government to-day to make any full and elaborate statement about the position throughout the country. I only ask them to give what information they can as to the tendencies I have described, and make it quite clear, so that there may be no question in any part of the country, that no legislation is in prospect, that the Government will do everything they can to assist the administration of the law, and will discourage any idea that the appointment of this Royal Commission can be regarded as an excuse for refusing the payment of the tithe rentcharge which is due both in law and equity.
THE LORD BISHOP OF NORWICHMy Lords, I have no wish to initiate a general discussion on the subject of tithe rentcharge, but your Lordships will forgive me if I make a few further observations on the subject as dealt with by the most reverend Primate. There are many of us who are quite ready to support the Government's decision to hold an inquiry on the subject under the guise of a Royal Commission, although we could have wished that the inquiry could have come at a rather later stage and not at a time when the erection of this Commission might tend to hinder the collection of tithe as we now hear may be the case. But I believe we require from the Government something more than an authoritative pronouncement. Indeed, we had that the other day from the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, and in spite of that pronouncement we have this kind of thing now growing in the country as indicated by the most reverend Primate in his speech. I believe we want more than a pronouncement that the liability of tithe rentcharge remains unaffected. We want some indication that the Government will be ready to help those who are authorised to collect this tithe rentcharge.
One of the great hindrances that the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty have felt in the last year or two was that the law itself was obscure, but there have been many cases tried in the Courts, and the law, previously obscure, has now 261 become clear. We are all ready to support the words used by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack as to the importance of maintaining the law as law, but there are certain points where the effective carrying out of the law is put at a standstill by some of those WHO are against the whole principle of tithe rentcharge. May I be allowed to give you one or two examples of the things that are in my mind? The majority of the County Court Judges, in districts in which there have been attempts to defeat the execution of distress orders by interference at auction sales, authorise the sale of goods by tender instead of by auction. There are some districts where, though there has been no overt interference, there is organised opposition to tithe, and there, if some of the Judges are disinclined to authorise sales by tender, in consequence there is great delay and risk in obtaining the execution of orders. That is one illustration of a form of helplessness into which those who have to collect tithe are thrown. Again, in some districts there are not enough possession men or police to control the custody of the goods or the cattle after seizure. There have been eases in which, after seizure by the bailiff, the men left in possession have been compelled to abandon the distress by reason of the threatening action of the friends of the farmer, and the distress has thereupon been removed. Moreover, the scenes of disorder which we all regret have not come to an end. It is exceedingly difficult at times to find who is responsible for this or chat scene of disorder which has impeded the course of the law.
I may say, speaking as a Governor of Queen Anne's Bounty who is particularly concerned with this matter of tithe, that Queen Anne's Bounty has not the smallest desire to use the law except in exceptional cases. We have found, as the most reverend Primate has already explained, that the conciliatory attitude adopted by Queen Anne's Bounty after the institution of a system of investigators, has been gaining all along the line, and, if the matter had been left alone, I believe that, as the months and the years went by, the policy of Queen Anne's Bounty would have been crowned with success. Queen Anne's Bounty has no desire to use the law except in the case of those who have deliberately wished to disobey the law 262 when all the time they have funds at their disposal which would enable them to conform to its demands. Whatever is done I may say that Queen Anne's Bounty will maintain its conciliatory attitude, believing that reasonable concession is good not only for the tithe-payer but also for the tithe-owner. The fact that there is to be a Royal Commission will not for a moment interfere with the way in which Queen Anne's Bounty has so far been trying to carry on a rather irksome task.
The policy has gone well, but we do need the assurance of the Government that there is to be nothing in the nature of a moratorium. More than that, we want to know that, if there are those who seize upon the setting up of this Royal Commission as giving a kind of unofficial sanction to a moratorium, the Government will be ready to help in the due enforcement of the law. This is perhaps especially the case in regard to arrears. It appears to me that if no steps are taken by the Government to give us an authoritative pronouncement the arrears, already great, will go on mounting up, and that means, as the most reverend Primate has already said, that in many cases the clergy, who are dependent upon the tithe for their very existence and the existence of their families, will further suffer.
EARL DE LA WAREMy Lords, the most reverend Primate has given expression to his fears with that moderation which we would all expect from him. At the same time he has stated to us very clearly the reasons why he feels it necessary so to do. Before I answer his specific Question, may I say that we regret very much that he felt that we were endeavouring to evade our responsibility for the change of policy by attempting to place it on to his shoulders and those of his colleagues? I have looked at the statement of the noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House, and I think it is perfectly clear from what he said that he took full governmental responsibility for what was being done. At the same time he did make it clear that a compromise which the Government had hoped to be of help had proved not to be so, and had proved to be not particularly welcome to one side and to be most unwelcome to the other.
263 With regard to the specific Question of the most reverend Primate, there is no foundation whatever for the suggestions which have been made in certain quarters, but not by representative agricultural bodies, that following on the withdrawal of the Tithe Bill and pending the Report of the proposed Royal Commission on tithe rentcharge, landowners should not be required to pay in full the annual tithe rentcharge to which their lands are liable. As was stated by my noble and learned friend the Leader of the House on the 7th June, the withdrawal of the Tithe Bill involved the continuance of existing conditions. In these circumstances the liability to tithe rentcharge remains unaffected, and pending the Report of the Royal Commission and legislative action, if any, on its recommendations, tithe rentcharge will continue to be payable and recoverable in accordance with the existing law. I think that is the reply which the most reverend Primate was hoping I should be able to make, and I do not think there is anything more I can say on the matter except that that is the definite policy of the Government.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYMy Lords, as I indicated, I did not expect a long statement in reply so long as it was explicit. I only hope that the Government will fulfil the statement which they have now made, which, I trust, will be observed throughout the country, not only in words but, where the occasion arises, in deed.