HL Deb 28 July 1931 vol 81 cc1263-7

Leave out Clause 2.

The Commons disagree to the above Amendment, but have amended the words so restored to the Bill as follows:—

Page 4, line 16, at end, insert "land or to take land on lease by agreement and to"

Page 4, line 18, after "farms," insert "conducted on an economic basis"

Page 4, line 23, at end, insert—

Provided that no farm conducted under the powers conferred by this section shall exceed two hundred and fifty acres in extent unless the annual value thereof was at the date of the acquisition of the land by the Minister assessed for the purposes of Income Tax under Schedule A of the Income Tax Act, 1918, at an amount which did not exceed two hundred and fifty pounds.

and to ante-date it, one of his reasons was that it was Wanted in another place? This is July 28 and nearly two months have elapsed since that date. Therefore, if he had yielded to my request and had taken the Third Reading on the day on which it was put down nobody would have been hurt and members who wished to speak would have ben able to speak.

On Question, Whether the Motion shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 11; Not-Contents, 57.

CONTENTS.
Sankey, L. (L. Chancellor.) Arnold, L. Olivier, L.
Hay, L. (E. Kinnoull.) [Teller.] Passfield, L.
Parmoor, L. (L. President.) Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Marks, L. Snell, L.
De La Warr, E. Marley, L. [Teller.]
NOT-CONTENTS.
Bedford, D. Stanhope, E. Desborough, L.
Wellington, D. Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.) Dynevor, L.
Fairlie, L. (E. Glasgow.)
Dufferin and Ava, M. Bertie of Thame, V. Faringdon, L.
Linlithgow, M. Bridgeman, V. Forester, L.
Elibank, V. Gage, L. (V. Gage.) [Teller.]
Airlie, E. FitzAlan of Derwent, V. Greenway, L.
Harrowby, E. Goschen, V. Hastings, L.
Lauderdale, E. Hailsham, V. Hayter, L.
Liverpool, E. Novar, V. Heneage, L.
Lucan, E. [Teller.] Howard of Glossop, L.
Malmesbury, E. Aberdare, L. Lamington, L.
Mar and Kellie, E. Banbury of Southam, L. Merthyr, L.
Midleton, E. Biddulph, L. Mildmay of Flete, L.
Morton, E. Clinton, L. Monk Bretton, L.
Minister, E. Cornwallis, L. Redesdale, L.
Peel, E. Cottesloe, L. Remnant, L.
Plymouth, E. Cranworth, L. Stonehaven, L.
Poulett, E. Danesfort, L. Swinfen, L.
Radnor, E. Darling, L. Trenchard, L.
Wavertree, L.
EARL DE LA WARR

My Lords, I beg to move that the House doth not insist on its Amendment and doth agree to the Commons Amendments.

Moved, That this House doth not insist upon the said Amendment, and doth agree to the Commons Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)

LORD CLINTON

My Lords, with reference to this clause, the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, explained in his preliminary remarks the effect of the additional words that the Government propose to put in. I admit that they make a very great difference. Perhaps, in passing, I may be allowed to congratulate the noble and learned Viscount upon his successful diplomacy in being able to persuade the right hon. gentleman (the Minister of Agriculture) to accept matters which he would not accept across the floor of the House. Perhaps I might also be allowed to say a word in favour of the right hon. gentleman who has been prepared to meet the noble and learned Viscount in several respects with regard to this particular clause. The noble and learned Viscount explained that the Government are now prepared to reduce these demonstration farms to farms not exceeding 250 acres in extent, and, in so far as there is the possibility of this clause being utilised for large-scale farming, I think I would not expect any more than perhaps an indication that these farms shall not be used for large-scale farming. But you can duplicate and triplicate 250 acre farms till you get a farm upon a large scale.

In speaking of this clause, I do not think it was the desire of your Lordships, in the earlier stages, to show any objection to a demonstration farm as such. We recognise the enormous advance that there has been in agricultural research during recent years, and that demonstration is a necessary complement of research. Research has shown us how to work land scientifically, and it has been upon demonstration farms that practical application has been made of scientific knowledge. In this clause the Government puts some reliance upon these farms being conducted on an economic basis. I do not understand how far that will take us. It seems; to be the intention to work the farms economically, but in the event of their not being economic I am not certain what will happen. It is more than probable, I think, that farms worked by Universities and big bodies will be unlikely to show a profit. In every case, demonstration charges are too high. It is the object of these farms to show the farmers how their land can be worked profitably, and, even in the unlikely event of these farms being profitable, I am afraid the experiment will not be very convincing to the ordinary practical farmer.

A farmer has a suspicion—a perfectly natural one I think—that farms conducted at University research stations and by other bodies with large command of capital, and with any amount of advice, scientific, economic, practical and agricultural, are enabled to be worked under conditions which are not analogous in any way to those which are found on the ordinary farm worked by a practical farmer. I am quite certain that the best method in which the demonstration can be effective in inducing improved agriculture is by some method of carrying out the results of scientific research upon an ordinary farmer's farm. It is done to quite a considerable extent under county councils and it is also done under many other bodies. The Rothamsted experimental station has a very large number of farmers who every year are carrying on experiments for it on the lines of results which have been proved as far as they can be proved at the station itself. We have found farmers very willing to do this. It does not require a very great deal of money, and it will not require much addition to the ordinary work of the stations. I am not quite certain, but I believe under this new clause it will be possible for the Government to work their demonstration farms in that way. I shall be glad to have some assurance upon that. If we can have some assurance of that kind I can very willingly support the clause as amended.

EARL DE LA WARR

My Lords, I am very glad to hear that the noble Lord, subject to certain qualifications, does now feel that this clause might be acceptable at any rate to him. Very considerable changes, as he has already told your Lordships and indeed as the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, told your Lordships, have been made. Perhaps I might deal first with the noble Lord's last point. He has asked whether provision has been made for work to be carried out on farmers' land. What we have done is to insert an Amendment to enable us to take land on lease without purchase, but on the question of carrying out experiments on farmers' own lands I do not think there would be any necessity for inserting that in a Bill. With regard to the words "conducted on an economic basis," of which the noble Lord asks for some explanation, I do not think they mean neceesarily that if a demonstration farm were to lose money for one year it would have at once to be closed down. What they mean is that it is definitely laid down that the Ministry of Agriculture is not to be allowed to run experimental farms except under a general instruction that the farms should be run on an economic basis—that is for commercial demonstration. If they are a commercial success, no doubt that will be taken as proof that the system of farming which they are attempting to demonstrate is not a failure.

As to the other point, that again has already been mentioned. I am asked to give an assurance that Clause 2 shall not be used in a roundabout fashion for doing what we wanted to do under Clause 1. Of course, your Lordships know that we would not think of trying to do such a thing. At any rate, this Amendment shows your Lordships how sincere we are on that I think the noble Lord is a little unfair when he suggests we are going to add a lot of farms together. Apart from anything else, what we are after is a large unit and a large number of separate units would not meet the point. We have made very big concessions in regard to this clause. Therefore I hope your Lordships will agree with the Commons Amendments.

On Question, Motion agreed to: the Lords Amendment not insisted upon and Commons Amendments agreed to accordingly.