§ Order of the Day for receiving the Report of Amendments read.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE)My Lords, before putting the Motion, that this Report be now received, I would ask leave to make a personal explanation arising out of one of the Amendments discussed in Committee. In a short statement in Committee I referred to the case which might possibly arise of an assistant breaking the regulations with regard to the sale of poisons with the connivance of his employer, and I said that in such a case, which must be very rare, we should be dealing with persons of low moral standard. In some journals the last words became detached from their context, and were made to refer to pharmaceutical chemists as a whole. It was not noticed in this House during the course of the debate, and nothing was further from my own mind, as I am fully aware of the importance of the service to the community rendered by pharmaceutical chemists, whose professional standard it is intended to maintain and raise by the proposed legislation. I therefore regret the misunderstanding, and I am obliged to your Lordships for having allowed me an opportunity to correct it.
§ Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to, and Amendments reported accordingly.
881§ Clause 2:
§ Issue of certificates of registration, and penalties for abuse of certificates.
§ (2) If, with intent to deceive, any person—
- (a) forges, or uses, or lends to or allows to be used by any other person a certificate of registration or any other certificate issued under any of the Pharmacy Acts; or
- (b) makes or has in his possession any document so closely resembling any such certificate as aforesaid as to be calculated to deceive;
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to add to subsection (2) "after conviction therefor." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is really only a drafting Amendment. It would be unreasonable and contrary to the usual practice that the continuing penalty imposed by the clause for a continuing offence should begin to run before there has been a conviction for the offence.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 18, at end insert ("after conviction therefore").—(Lord ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 4 [Duty of authorised sellers of poisons to register business premises]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SANKEY)The Amendment, on the Paper to this clause in the name of Lord Halsbury, to substitute "person" for "seller of poisons", is not moved.
§ Clause 5:
§ Authorised sellers of poisons furnish registrar with list of shops and pharmacists in charge.
§ 5.—(1) Every authorised seller of poisons shall in the month of January in each year send to the registrar a list of all the sets of premises where his business, so far as it comprises the retail sale of drugs, is being carried on and the name of the registered pharmacist by whom the business is conducted on each set of premises.
§ (2) An authorised seller of poisons who fails to comply with the provisions of this section shall be liable on summary conviction in respect of each offence to a fine not exceeding five pounds.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved, at the end of subsection (2), to 882 insert "and to a further fine not exceeding one pound for every day subsequent to the day on which he is convicted during which the default continues." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this point was raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie of Thame, and Lord Danesfort, who put down an Amendment in Committee in order to meet their point. The clause is thereby made a little bit more drastic.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 11, at end, insert ("and to a further fine not exceeding one pound for every day subsequent to the day on which he is convicted during which the default continues").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEMy Lords, I beg leave to thank the noble Lord for having met the point that I raised.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 7:
§ Restriction on use of certain titles, etc.
§ 7.—(1) It shall not be lawful for any person unless he is registered as a pharmaceutical chemist to take or use the title of pharmaceutical chemist or pharmaceutist, or for any person unless he is registered as a pharmacist to take or use the title of chemist and druggist, or of druggist or of pharmacist or of member of the Pharmaceutical Society, or to take or use in connection with the sale of goods by retail the title of chemist.
§ (3) If a person acts in contravention of the foregoing provisions of this section, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds, and to a further penalty of five pounds for every day during which the offence continues.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1), after "retail," to insert "or the dispensing of medicines." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment was moved in Committee by Lord Hereford, who pointed out that it was designed to prevent the use of the title "chemist" by unqualified dispensers in a hospital or in the laboratory of a manufacturing house. In reply, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede said the point would be covered by an Amendment which would be moved by the Government to Clause 24. It is true the Amendment was negatived, but I think it must have been on the assurance that an Amendment was going to be moved to Clause 24, the Definition Clause, which, as far as I can see, was not done. 883 Therefore I think I am entitled to raise the point afresh. It does not appear that the point has in fact been covered, as there is nothing in Clause 24 which covers it. The Amendment seeks to prevent an unqualified person obtaining a post as a dispenser to a hospital and describing himself as "chemist" to the hospital. It frequently happens that there is writing paper or order papers specially printed for the use of the dispensary, upon which is the name of the person in charge of that department. If on the stationery in this way an unqualified dispenser is described as a chemist, the Amendment would make it illegal. Such a use of the title is not only misleading within the hospital itself, but might easily become a means whereby a person not entitled to do so could obtain possession of drugs, such as morphine, cocaine, or heroin, which, under the Dangerous Drugs Acts, may only be ordered by a medical practitioner or a pharmacist for hospitals.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 23, after ("retail") insert ("or the dispensing of medicines").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, what I think the noble Viscount does not quite appreciate is that the word "dispensing" really means supplying. So far as dispensing in shops is concerned, the point is already dealt with by the preceding words. If it is intended, as I gather from what the noble Viscount has said, that the Amendment shall cover the case of so-called dispensing in hospitals, the Amendment will not have that effect. An essential element in dispensing is, as I have said, supplying, as will be seen by the definition in the Bill. Therefore I cannot accept the Amendment.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEMy Lords, after the explanation I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment, but I would like to consult the Pharmaceutical Society in order to ascertain their views.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, my next Amendment, in subsection (3), is nothing more than a drafting Amendment, to bring the penalty in line with the other provisions of the Bill.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 39, leave out from ("conviction") to the end of line 41, and insert ("in respect of each offence to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds and in the case of a contiuuing offence to a further fine not exceeding five pounds for every day during which the offence continues after conviction therefor").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 8 [Constitution of Statutory Committee]:
§
LORD COZENS-HARDY moved, after subsection (4), to insert the following new subsection:
(5) If the member appointed by the Privy Council becomes, by reason of illness or other infirmity temporarily incapable of performing the duties of his office, the Privy Council may appoint a deputy (who shall be a person having practical legal experience, but who need not be a member of the Society or of the Council of the Society) to perform his duties for any period not exceeding six months at one time, and the person so appointed shall, during that period, have the same powers as the person originally appointed.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, since the Bill was last before the House the noble Lord in charge of the Bill has most courteously given me an opportunity of conferring with him on some of the points which I then raised, and I have reason to hope that in the form in which the Amendment now stands it will be acceptable. It will, therefore, not be necessary to trouble your Lordships at any length. The Amendment is intended to deal with the point that, as the Bill stands, the Statutory Committee cannot meet in the absence of the member appointed by the Privy Council.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 19, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Cozens-Hardy.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, the Government accept this Amendment. May I thank the noble Lord for his courtesy in communicating with me, and thus saving a great deal of time?
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 11:
§ Conditions to be fulfilled by pharmacist in order to become authorised seller of poisons.
§ 11. A registered pharmacist carrying on a business which comprises the retail sale of drugs shall be an authorised seller of poisons within the meaning of this Act if the following conditions are complied with— 885
- (a) in each set of premises where the business is carried on the business must be bona fide conducted by the pharmacist himself or some other registered pharmacist; and
- (b) the name and certificate of registration of the person by whom the business is so conducted in any premises must be conspicuously exhibited in those premises.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in paragraph (a), after "in," to insert "every part of." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is a manuscript Amendment, of which I have given private notice to the noble Lord. I am sorry I did not put it down on the Paper, but I only went into the case, which was reported in The Times, late last night, and had not time to get the Amendment printed on the Paper. The Amendment arises out of a rather disquieting case, which was reported in the Press at the end of last week. The name of the case is the Council of the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain versus Watkinson. It was the case of a coin-in-the-slot machine, in which the Pharmaceutical Society proceeded against Mr. Watkinson for the recovery of a penalty of £5 under Section 3 (1) of the Poisons and Pharmacy Act, 1908.
§
In the course of his judgment Mr. Justice Talbot is reported to have said this:
No one could doubt that if that which had been done by Mr. Watkinson could be done without breaking the law, it was very unfortunate, because, as had been pointed out by the County Court Judge, any child of a stature sufficient to enable him to reach the effective part of the machine could get one of these dangerous bottles. It did not seem beyond the province of the Court to say that the Pharmaceutical Society and others interested in those matters might well consider the question whether those methods of retailing poisons should not be directly controlled by the Legislature.
Further on he said:
It appeared plain that the words 'in every premises' did not mean 'in every part of the premises,' or still less 'at all times or hours.'
That is a very serious statement by one of His Majesty's Judges, and I have put down this and other Amendments to try to cover that point. If the noble Lord would like me formally to move them now and have a general discussion on them, after which he might put something down for the Third Reading which would really cover the point, I should be prepared not
886
to press the Amendment. But I think now is the time when the legislation should be altered to cover the case.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 23, after ("in") insert ("every part of").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ EARL BEAUCHAMPMy Lords, this is really not a point of great substance, but it is a point of some importance. There was a Committee which sat in the course of last year, when the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition expressed the very strongest views with regard to manuscript Amendments. He thought that manuscript Amendments should only be moved on the rarest occasions, and, although I did not agree with him in every case, I do think, as a member of the Committee, that I cannot allow this discussion to go on without protesting against the moving, and especially on Report, of a manuscript Amendment. I do not know what the Leader of the House will think, and I regret the absence of the Leader of the Opposition. The noble Earl, Lord Donoughmore, who was, I think, in the chair on that occasion, fully agreed as to the immense importance of preventing manuscript Amendments from being put into Bills at a late stage; and, although I do not wish to oppose the Amendment, I wish to enter a caveat, and I hope your Lordships will be very careful before adding anything in manuscript to this Bill on this occasion.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, with my short experience I hardly like to express any opinion with regard to procedure and to the proper course to take in reference to manuscript Amendments. I only received the notice of this Amendment an hour ago. It is a matter which may be of considerable importance. It is, quite obviously, not a matter that can be tucked into a Bill at the last moment. The case to which the noble Viscount has alluded is one against which there is going to be an appeal—I think an appeal is pending. As to whether special legislation would be required I am not in a position to say, and I cannot say whether, when this Bill goes to another place, it should be amended in this respect or not. But, in any case, I think your Lordships will agree that this is not the appropriate moment to deal with it in this Bill, and I cannot, there- 887 fore, for a moment accept any of the Amendments on this point which the noble Viscount has put down.
§ LORD DANESFORTMy Lords, might I ask the noble Lord to consider between this stage and Third Reading, with the help of his advisers, whether he might not put on the Paper an Amendment which would deal with this really very important point? Of course, I agree with everything that has been said as to the undesirability of manuscript Amendments coming before your Lordships' House at a late stage of a Bill; but in this case it has been very difficult to put down the Amendment earlier, owing to the fact that this case was only decided quite recently. But the noble Lord will have time between this and Third Reading to consider it carefully, and, if he thinks fit, to prepare a new clause or an Amendment. It may be said that there is an appeal pending, but it is by no means certain that the appeal will succeed, and, unless some clause of the kind is put into the Bill now, it may be six months, or possibly a year, before this really very serious matter can be put right.
§ LORD PARMOORMy Lords, I should like to say a word in confirmation of what the noble Earl has said. It is, I think, one of the things we boast of in this House that we carry on our proceedings in such a form that matters are properly considered, and if words are inserted in a Bill they are inserted in proper form. That is quite impossible if at the last moment a manuscript Amendment of this character is put forward. I dissent from any proposal further to consider it now. But this Bill will go to another place. They have the power there of revising what we do, as we have the power of revising what they do. But, so far as this House is concerned, I hope that we shall maintain our attitude that manuscript Amendments brought forward at the last moment on Report are not then considered. I say nothing about the Third Reading—we are not upon that at the present moment—although I should deprecate it even then. I hope this Amendment will be negatived.
THE EARL OF ONSLOWMy Lords, I wish to support what has been said by the noble Earl, Lord Beauchamp, and by 888 the Leader of the House. I do not think we can discuss this matter on a manuscript Amendment, although I ought to say, in justice to my noble friend, that it was quite impossible for him to do otherwise than he did, because he did not hear of the case until the Amendments had been printed. I think your Lordships would agree that, in view of the importance of the matter, he was perfectly right to bring it before your Lordships' House. Possibly it might be put down on Third Reading and then discussed, but possibly not passed; but, as the noble Lord the Leader of the House said, there will be an opportunity of further consideration of the matter before this Bill can become law.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, may I add to what my noble friend the Leader of the House has said, that I am afraid on Third Reading my attitude would be precisely the same as it is about introducing this into the Bill on the Report stage. The Third Reading will probably have to be taken in the course of a very few days as it is necessary for this Bill to go to another place, and I think it is extremely doubtful that such an important matter as this can be dealt with by merely amending a sentence in the Bill. Therefore, I would not hold out to the noble Viscount any prospect of a change of attitude if he were to raise the question again on Third Reading.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEMy Lords, in my speech—
§ LORD PARMOORMy Lords, I do not think that on the Report stage the noble Viscount has the right to address the House again. If we get the Committee principle of procedure on the Report stage we shall never get done.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEThe noble and learned Lord did not reprove his colleague Lord Ponsonby when he made a second speech, and I think I am entitled to say—
§ LORD PARMOORI really must protest as Leader of the House. I ought, perhaps, to have reproved Lord Ponsonby, but I did not know. On the Report stage we must keep to one speech.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEMy Lords, I ask the leave of your Lordships' House to reply.
§ Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEMy Lords, I was careful to say in my speech that I was not going to press this Amendment now. I only asked the noble Lord to consider the point and to put something down on the Third Reading. For my part I do not care a snap of the finger whether this House does it or the other place, so long as it is done.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 12:
§ Conditions to be fulfilled by body corporate in order to become authorised seller of poisons.
§ (2) Notwithstanding anything in Section five of this Act a body corporate which is an authorised seller of poisons may, if the superintendent is a member of the board of directors or other governing body of the body corporate, use the description of chemist and druggist, or of chemist, or of druggist, or of dispensing chemist or dispensing druggist, and the description "pharmacy" may be used in connection with the business.
§ (3) If—
- (a) a body corporate which is an authorised seller of poisons has been convicted of an offence against the Pharmacy Acts; or
- (b) any director or officer of or other person in the employment of that body has been convicted of any such criminal offence, or been guilty of any such misconduct, as, in the opinion of the Statutory Committee, renders him, or would if he were a registered pharmacist render him, unfit to be on the register;
- (i) that the body corporate shall cease to be an authorised seller of poisons and shall cease, either generally or in respect of specified premises, to be entitled to use any title or description which a body corporate being an authorised seller of poisons is entitled to use;
- (ii) that any or all of the premises of the body corporate shall be removed from the register of premises and be disqualified, for such period as may be specified in the direction, from being registered therein.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, the first Amendment is really drafting. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 24, leave out ("five") and insert ("seven").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to add to subsection (2):
Provided that nothing in this subsection shall authorise the use of any of the said titles or descriptions in or on any premises which are for the time being disqualified under the next succeeding subsection from being registered in the register of premises, or in connection with any business so far as it is carried on in any premises so disqualified.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this really amounts to a drafting Amendment. This and my next Amendment, which is to omit all words in paragraph (i) in subsection (3) after "poisons", make the point clearer and place the matter in a more appropriate position. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 31, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
LORD COZENS-HARDY moved, at the end of subsection (2), to insert:
A body corporate which is entitled by virtue of the provisions of this subsection to use the descriptions aforesaid may, if it is a private company within the meaning of the Companies Act, 1929, and every director of the company is a pharmaceutical chemist, also use the description of pharmaceutical chemist or of pharmacist.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment, whilst not perhaps covering all cases where objection cannot be taken to the use of these titles, will give some latitude to a pharmacist who wishes to follow the present tendency of converting an individual business into a private limited company without sacrificing his right to the use of the title "pharmacist." I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 31, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Cozens-Hardy.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEI accept this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
891§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, the next Amendment is consequential.
§ Amendment moved—
§ Page 9, line 6, leave out from ("poisons") to the end of line 10, and insert ("or").— (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 13:
§ Continuation by a representative of business of pharmacist who has died, become of unsound mind or been adjudged bankrupt.
§ 13.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, if at any time after this section comes into force a registered pharmacist who is an authorised seller of poisons dies or becomes of unsound mind or is adjudged bankrupt, any representatives who thereafter carry on his business in accordance with the conditions hereinafter specified shall, for the purposes of that business and during the period specified in subsection (2) of this section, be authorised sellers of poisons and be entitled to use in conjunction with the trade name of the pharmacist, such titles, emblems and descriptions as might have been used by the pharmacist.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "or becomes of unsound mind or is adjudged bankrupt." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I have given private notice to the noble Lord in charge of the Bill of my reason for moving this Amendment. In the Committee stage of the Improvement of Livestock (Licensing of Bulls) Bill I put an Amendement on the Paper to cover this very point with regard to certificates for keeping bulls. I was approached before the Committee stage of that Bill and asked particularly not to move the Amendment because it would upset the whole law of bankruptcy and it would be inadvisable in the case of lunatics. I was very much surprised to see that the noble Lord had an Amendment in Committee to cover that point in this Bill and I think it requires some explanation. I shall not press my Amendment to a Division because I approve of the words. But I think some explanation is required. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 22, leave out from ("dies") to ("any") in line 23.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, I am obliged to the noble Viscount for having explained to me his purpose in bringing this matter forward. 892 The words he proposes to omit were inserted at the particular request of the Pharmaceutical Society. I think the noble Viscount will see that if they were omitted it would not be possible for the business of an insane or a bankrupt registered pharmacist to be carried on. This would be really an injustice to his relatives and his creditors. It was on the representation of the Pharmaceutical Society that we put the words in.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 15 [New provisions to be substituted for existing provisions as to sale of poisons]:
LORD PHILLIMOREMy Lords, I am not sure that I am in order in drawing the attention of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill to a very conditional promise he made me as to Clause 15. If I am in order, may I take it that the noble Lord—
§ LORD PARMOORIs the noble Lord proposing an Amendment on the Report stage?
§ LORD PARMOORI do not think this is the time to do it. There will be an opportunity, no doubt, on Third Reading. That is not ordinarily done on the Report stage.
§ Clause 17:
§ Preparation of list of poisons for purposes of Act.
§ 17.—(1) The Secretary of State shall as soon as may be after the passing of this Act cause the Poisons Board to prepare and submit to him for his approval a list of the substances which are to be treated as poisons for the purposes of this Act.
§
(2) The list to be prepared under this section shall be divided into two parts as follows:—
Part I of the list shall consist of those poisons which, subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, are not to be sold except by persons who are authorised sellers of poisons, and
Part II of the list shall consist of those poisons which, subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, are not to be sold except by persons who are authorised sellers of poisons or by persons entitled by virtue of Section eighteen of this Act to sell poisons included in the said Part II.
§ (3) The Secretary of State shall forthwith take into consideration the list submitted to him by the Poisons Board, and may by order confirm it with or without modifications, as he thinks proper.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, my first two Amendments are drafting. I beg to move.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 12, line 13, leave out ("this Part of")
§ Page 12, line 17, leave out ("this Part of").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "entitled by virtue of Section eighteen of this Act to sell poisons included in the said Part II," and to insert "whose names are entered in a list kept under Section twenty of this Act." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is the first of a series of Amendments, and I desire to make it plain that there will be power by rules made under the Bill to restrict any undesirable Part II poisons which may be sold by a registered person in certain cases or to restrict the sales of certain Part II poisons to certain classes of registered persons. To do this involves differentiating between persons whose names are on a list kept under Section 20, and it is thought that the phraseology used here and elsewhere in the Bill would, if not amended, imply that such differentiation was perhaps impossible, and that every person whose name is included in the list kept under Section 20 would be necessarily entitled to sell every poison for the time being listed in Part II of the list. The noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, called my attention to the matter on the Committee stage and I think this series of Amendments will meet his point. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 20, leave out from ("persons") to the end of line 22 and insert ("whose names are entered in a list kept under Section twenty of this act").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
LORD COZENS-HARDY moved, at the end of subsection (3), to insert:
894
Provided that where the Secretary of State proposes to confirm the list with modifications the Secretary of State shall inform the Poisons Board of the proposed modifications and give to the Board a reasonable opportunity of making any observations with respect thereto, and shall, before finally confirming the list, take into consideration any observations so made.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Amendment standing in my name deals with a point of some importance. It is to ensure before the Secretary of State departs from the recommendations of the Poisons Board that the Board shall have an opportunity of upholding its point of view. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 26, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Cozens-Hardy.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, I accept this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 18:
§ Prohibitions and regulations with respect to sale of poisons.
§ 18.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, it shall not be lawful—
- (a)
- (b) for any person to sell any poison included in Part II of the Poisons List, unless either—
- (i) that person is an authorised seller of poisons and the sale is effected on premises duly registered under Part I of this Act by or under the supervision of a registered pharmacist; or
- (ii) that person is a person entitled by virtue of Section eighteen of this Act to sell poisons included in Part II of the Poisons List and the sale is effected on the premises specified in the list kept under the said section as premises on which that person is entitled to sell such poisons:
§ (2) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act and to any rules made under this Act dispensing with or relaxing any of the requirements of this subsection—
§ (a)
§
LORD PHILLIMORE moved, in subsection (1), immediately before paragraph (a), to insert the following new paragraph:
(a) for any person to keep open shop for the dispensing of prescribed medicines unless that person is an authorised seller of poisons.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this point was reserved by the noble Lord in charge of the Bill, although in very guarded terms. I think he said that it would require a greater armoury of arguments directed in support of the Amendment than were at that time forthcoming. The Amendment was originally in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, who, as your Lordships know, cannot be here, and I have been asked to move it in this amended form. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, took objection to it, I think on four grounds, one of which was that it would involve great hardships, because there are many parts of the country where there is no registered pharmacist within reach. That this would not result is shown by the working of the National Health Insurance Act, under which all farm workers in fact come, and who are in most country districts supplied with medicine dispensed by the doctor. If the paragraph was adopted, doctors being free to dispense, the same practice would prevail.
§ Lord Ponsonby's second objection was based upon the fact that the Society's Amendment as originally drafted would prevent the supply of simple, uncompounded medicines. For that purpose, the wording of the proposed Amendment has been changed, and the word used is "dispensed," which is the word used in the National Health Insurance Act. The noble Lord also objected on the ground that it would interfere with the possibility of persons holding the assistant's certificate of the Society of Apothecaries, and ex-Army compounders, from dispensing in chemists' shops. As redrafted, the Amendment overcomes this objection. A further objection was that it would lead to an increase of price, an argument with which I should be in very great sympathy, but I would point out to the noble Lord that there are over ten thousand shops which would be qualified to dispense in this country, and that the ordinary rules of competition would probably ensure a sufficiently cheap supply. The noble Lord also suggested that the Amendment would interfere with the supply of veterinary medicine. With that point again I should be in the greatest sympathy, and I have received from the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons a suggestion that qualified surgeons should be added to the doctors and dentists as persons qualified to dis- 896 pense. I hope that the noble Lord would, if he accepted the Amendment, also accept the suggestion of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. The arguments in favour of doing away with open shops were placed before your Lordships on Second Reading., and it is not necessary for me to reiterate them. I would only add that, owing to a clerical error, the words "prescription only given" in an Amendment to Clause 26 were intended to read "prescription duly given" and I hope the noble Lord may agree to the Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 38, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Phillimore.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, this Amendment, as the noble Lord has explained, is another attempt on his part to get this particular form of wording included in this Bill. In a later Amendment, as he says, he proposes to define "prescribed medicine" as meaning a medicine" ordered on the prescription duly given by a duly qualified medical practitioner or by a registered dentist." As dispensing a medicine is defined in Clause 26 as supplying a person "in accordance with a prescription duly given by a duly qualified medical practitioner," the effect of this proposed Amendment would be to prevent any person, except the registered pharmacist, supplying a medicine on a doctor's prescription. This was the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, on Committee stage. This is a matter of a very far-reaching character. We have consulted very closely with the medical profession on this point, and we have their whole-hearted support for the attitude we are taking up. This is asking for the pharmaceutical chemist an absolute monopoly and a control of prices. The analogy, as I pointed out in Committee, with the provision under the National Health Insurance Act, is not the same, because there the prices are controlled. This would give a complete monopoly, and also it would rule out Army dispensers, those who have certificates of the Society of Apothecaries, and any unregistered pharmacist. Whether that should be done or not I do not want to say now, but it is quite obvious that if such a very drastic proposal is to be adopted and to be included in an Act of Parliament, there should be a very wide- 897 spread inquiry into the whole case before legislative action is taken. I am afraid I cannot alter the attitude which I adopted on the Committee stage, and I must refuse to accept this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment negatived.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, the next Amendment in my name is drafting.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 9, after ("Act") insert ("and").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved, in subsection (1) (b), to leave out paragraph (ii) and insert:
(ii) his name is entered in a list kept under Section twenty of this Act, and the sale is effected on premises specified in that list as being premises on which he is entitled, subject to the provision of this Act, to sell poisons included in Part II of the Poisons List.
§ The noble Lord said: This is a consequential Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 12, leave out paragraph (ii) and insert the said new words.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (2). immediately before paragraph (a), to insert "in respect of any poison or class of poisons in Part I of the Poisons List." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to make it clear that it is possible for the poisons in Part I of the Poisons List to be divided into one or more classes, and that regulations may be made applying different provisions to different classes within Part I. The Amendment was put down in a different form in Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, said he thought that the Government's Amendment designed to cover this point did all that was necessary, but was ready to consider any further Amendment. The present wording of the introductory paragraph to Clause 18 (2) makes it clear that rules can be made dispensing with or relaxing any of the requirements of the subsection, but does not go to the extent of putting it beyond question that the poisons in Part I of the Poisons List can be divided into different categories. I suggest that the new Amendment, with- 898 out in any way weakening the rule-making powers of the Secretary of State, and without limiting the discretion of the Poisons Board, makes it clear that the poisons in Part I could be divided into classes, as, for example, poisons which could only be sold upon a medical prescription, poisons upon the sale of which a signature would have to be obtained in the poisons book, and poisons which could be sold without restriction provided they were labelled with the word "Poison." I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 38, at end insert ("in respect of any poison or class of poisons in Part I of the Poisons List").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, I am in full agreement with the point which the noble Viscount has argued and it is merely a question as to whether the Bill, as it stands, makes that clear or not. I have gone into this very carefully and have consulted high legal authorities, and I am advised that the words which the noble Lord proposes to insert are really unnecessary and do not add any effect to the Bill as it stands. The various categories of poisons are defined and it is not really necessary to refer to them again in the words he proposes. His particular point is safeguarded.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEI beg leave to withdraw.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 19:
§ Exemption with respect to sales wholesale and sales to certain persons.
§ 19. Except as provided by rules under this Act, nothing in the foregoing provisions of this Part of this Act shall extend to or interfere with—
§
(5) the sale of an article by a person carrying on a business, a substantial part of which consists of the sale of poisons either by way of wholesale dealing or for use by the buyers thereof in their trade or business to—
(a) a person who requires the article—
§ LORD STRACHIE moved, in paragraph (5) (a) (i), after "business," to insert "or incidental thereto." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I put my Amendments on the Paper because it was suggested to me that the Bill was inclined to restrict the facilities which agriculturists have at the present moment of obtaining poisonous substances, but I am given to understand that, on the contrary, it extends those facilities and does not restrict them. I shall therefore formally move this Amendment in order to give the noble Lord in charge of the Bill an opportunity of saying that that is the case.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 32, after ("business") insert ("or incidental thereto").—(Lord Strachie.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEThe noble Lord, Lord Strachie, is quite correct in the inference he draws from examining this clause, because, if the intention of his Amendment was to help the farmers, which I gather it is, this really would do nothing in that respect, whereas the Bill as it stands is favourable to their particular case.
§ LORD STRACHIEI beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 20:
§ Certain persons other than authorised sellers of poisons to be entitled to sell poisons in Part II of Poisons List.
§ 20.—(1) Every local authority shall keep for the purposes of this Part of this Act a list of persons who, not being entitled to sell poisons included in Part I of the Poisons List, are entitled to sell poisons included in Part II of the Poisons List, and shall, on payment of such fee as is hereinafter provided, enter in the list the name of any person who, having premises in the area of the authority, makes an application in writing to the local authority in the prescribed form to have his name entered in the list as a person entitled to sell such poisons on those premises:
§ Provided that the local authority may refuse to enter in, or may remove from, the list the name of any person who in the opinion of the authority is, for any sufficient reason relating either to him personally or to his premises, not fit to be on the list.
§ (5) If any person whose name is on the said list is convicted before any court of an offence against the Pharmacy Acts or of any other criminal offence which, in the opinion of the court, renders him unfit to have his 900 name on the list, the court may, as part of the sentence, order his name to be removed from the list and direct that he shall, for such period as may be specified in the order, be disqualified for having his name on any list kept under this section.
§ (8) It shall not be lawful for any person whose name is entered in a list kept under this section to take or use, or affix to, or use in connection with his premises any title, emblem or description reasonably calculated to suggest that he is entitled to sell any poison other than a poison contained in Part II of the Poisons List, and if any person acts in contravention of this subsection he shall, in respect of each offence, be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds, and in the case of a continuing offence to a further penalty of five pounds for each day during which the offence continues.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.
§ Amendment moved—
§ Page 17, line 12, leave out ("are") and insert ("shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, the next Amendments are also drafting Amendments.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 17, lines 13 and 14, leave out ("on payment of such fee as is") and insert ("subject as")
§ Page 17, line 16, leave out ("in writing")
§ Page 17, line 18, after ("entitled") insert (''subject to the provisions of this Act")
§ Page 17, line 22, after ("who") insert ("fails to pay the prescribed fees or who").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert:
and provided that the local authority before inserting the name of an applicant in the list shall take into consideration whether in the neighbourhood where the applicant carries on or intends to carry on business the reasonable requirements, of the public with respect to the purchase of poisons in Part II of the Poisons List are satisfied.
§ The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment was moved by my noble friend Lord Askwith in Committee in the same words. In replying, my noble friend said this was a matter which he would look into. He understood the point, but was not prepared at the 901 moment to say whether he could accept it. He thought he might possibly meet the point on the Report stage. The Bill, as it is drawn, requires local authorities to put upon the list the name of every applicant, unless there is some objection to him personally or to his premises. Under the Poisons and Pharmacy Act, 1908, before a, licence to sell agricultural and horticultural poisons can be granted, the applicant has to publish notice of his intention to apply for such a licence in two newspapers circulating in the neighbourhood, he has to give notice to the Chief Officer of Police and, before granting a licence, the local authority is required to take into consideration whether in the neighbourhood where the applicant carries on or intends to carry on, business the reasonable requirements of the public with respect to the purchase of these poisons are satisfied. They have also to consider any objections that may be received from the Chief Officer of Police or from existing vendors of these substances.
§
The effect of the Bill in its present form is to sweep away these restrictions. Any one may be listed as a seller of these poisons, and the local authorities have no power to prevent the multiplication of the channels through which such deadly poisons as arsenical sheep dip or weed killer may reach the public far beyond the needs of the locality. It is with the object of restoring to the local authorities the discretionary power which they have hitherto enjoyed that this Amendment is framed. I would like to read a passage from the Justice of the Peace and Local Government Review on this clause:
The conditions are of the simplest character. Any person having a place of business in the area of the authority may apply in writing to the local authority to have his name entered on the list of authorised sellers allowed to sell these things, and unless, in the opinion of the local authority, there is a sufficient reason relating either to him personally or to his premises, he will go automatically on the list. All he has to do then is to have his premises registered, and observe some simple regulations as to labelling…. Local authorities are not likely to refuse registration except for some very serious reason; and as they are only to consider the fitness of the applicant and of his premises they are not likely to trouble themselves about the nature of the poisons covered by a licence to sell… Applicants for such licences are required to be advertised in
902
the local Press, so that objections may be lodged against the granting to them of licences: such publicity will no longer be required, nor will any opportunity be given of urging objections.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 24, at end insert the said proviso.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, the noble Viscount quite rightly reminds me that on the Committee stage I promised the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, to look into this particular point. On looking into it further, I am, however, only fortified in the attitude I took on the Committee stage. It has been found in practice that very strong pressure is being brought to bear on local authorities by interested parties to prevent licences being granted. The strongest evidence was laid before the Departmental Committee on the point and the farmers were unanimous in demanding that the provisions of the existing law upon the subject—namely, the provisions about reasonable requirements—should be abolished. The Government have heard that farmers' co-operative societies have repeatedly been prevented from obtaining licences for the supply of agricultural necessaries which contain poison, and I had placed before me by the Ministry of Agriculture a table with a number of instances where this very undesirable restriction has been exercised. In the face of these facts and with a view of giving what support we can to the agricultural industry, it would be impossible for me to accept the noble Viscount's Amendment.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEI beg leave to withdraw.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, I have several drafting Amendments to move.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 18, line 7, leave out from the first ("is") to ("criminal") in line 9, and insert ("entered in any list kept under this section, is convicted before any court of any ")
§ page 18 line 29, leave out from ("to") to ("any ") in line 30, and insert (" use in connection with his business")
§ page 18 line 33, leave out ("contained in Part II of the Poisons List") and insert ("which he is under this Act entitled to sell").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
903§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, my next Amendments bring the form of the penalty clause into line with the form of the other penalty clauses in the Bill.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 18, line 36, leave out ("penalty") and insert ("fine")
§ page18 line 38, leave out ("penalty of ") and insert ("fine not exceeding")
§ page18 line 39, at end insert ("after conviction therefor").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 21 [Power of Secretary of State to make rules]:
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 15, leave out from ("persons") to ("and") in line 17, and insert ("whose names are entered in lists kept under Section twenty of this Act and for prohibiting the sale of any specified poison or class of poisons by any class of such persons ")—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, the next Amendment is drafting.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 20, line 7, at end insert:
("(j) for prescribing anything which is by this Act to be prescribed").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 22 [Penalties]:
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, these are drafting Amendments.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 20, line 14, leave out ("(7) of Section eighteen,") and insert ("(8) of Section twenty")
§ page 20, line 17, leave out ("penalty '') and insert ("fine'')
§ Page 21, line 1, leave out ("penalty") and insert ("fine")—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 23:
§ Inspection and enforcement of Act.
§ (5) It shall be the duty of every local authority by means of inspection and otherwise to take all reasonable steps to secure compliance by persons not being authorised sellers of poisons with the provisions of Part II of this Act and of the rules made 904 under this Part of this Act so far as those provisions relate to poisons included13, at end insert the in Part II of the Poisons List.
§ (6) The inspection required by the last preceding subsection may be carried out either by persons appointed by the authority to act as inspectors for the purposes of that subsection or by persons who are inspectors appointed by the Society under This section, and any such inspector whether appointed by the Society or by the local authority shall, for the purposes of the last preceding subsection, have power at all reasonable times to enter any premises on which any person entitled by virtue of Section eighteen of this Act to sell poisons included in Part II of the Poisons List carries on business, and any premises on which the inspector has reasonable cause to suspect that a breach of the law has been committed in respect of any such poisons, and in either case shall have power to make such examination and inquiry and to do such other things (including the taking, on payment therefor, of samples) as may be necessary for the purposes of the inspection.
§ LORD COZENS-HARDY moved, at the end of subsection (5), to insert "and for that purpose to appoint inspectors, and an inspector appointed by the Society in pursuance of subsection (1) of this section may, with the consent of the Society, be appointed by a local authority to be also an inspector for the purposes of this subsection." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this clause reads as if there were a possibility of double inspection in regard to Part II. The sole object of the Amendment standing in my name is to make it quite clear that only one inspection is possible.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 13, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Cozens-Hardy.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, I accept this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD COZENS-HARDY moved, in subsection (6), to leave out all words down to and including "by the Society or" and to insert "an inspector appointed." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a consequential Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 14, leave out from the beginning to the second ("by") in line 19 and insert ("an inspector appointed").—(Lord Cozens-Hardy.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEThe next Amendments are drafting Amendments dealing with points to which I have already referred.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 22, line 22, "leave out from ("person") to ("carries") in line 24, and insert ("whose name is entered in a list kept under Section twenty of this Act")
§ Page 23, line 3, leave out ("penalty") and insert ("fine")
§ page 23,line 13, after ("shall") insert ("in respect of each offence").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 24:
§ Orders and rules to be laid before Parliament.
§ 24. All orders and rules made by the Secretary of State under this Act shall be laid before each House of Parliament for a period of thirty days during the Session of Parliament and, if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament before the expiration of that period, praying that the order or rule may be annulled, it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder or to the making of any new order or rule.
§
LORD COZENS-HARDY moved, at the end, to insert:—
Provided that any order confirming with amendments the Poisons List as submitted to the Secretary of State by the Poisons Board, or amending or varying the Poisons List otherwise than on the recommendation or with the concurrence of the Poisons Hoard, or making rules under Section twenty-one other than rules recommended by, or concurred in by, the Poisons Board, shall, when so laid before each House of Parliament be accompanied by a statement of the reasons of the Secretary of State for so making such order or rules without the concurrence of the Poisons Board.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, although this may introduce a new feature into the process of legislation by order, it seems only reasonable, if the Secretary of State thinks it is necessary to depart, from the advice of experts appointed by Parliament, that Parliament should be told why the Secretary of State thought that necessary when Parliament is asked to confirm the order. I am not sanguine enough to think that when the Secretary of State is asked to give a statement of reasons the reasons which he gives will be very informative. My only object is that some signal should be exhibited denoting the conflict between the experts appointed by Parliament and the expert advisers of the Minister. I am glad to know that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill may 906 be able to accept this Amendment, which I think would go far to remove some of the objections.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 29, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Cozens-Hardy.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEI am glad to accept this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 25:
§ Expenses of local authorities.
§ 25. Any expenses incurred by a local authority under this Act shall be defrayed, in the case of the council of a county, as general county expenses, and, in the case of the council of a county borough, out of the general rate fund.
§ LORD EBBISHAM moved, after "defrayed," to insert "in the case of the Common Council of the City of London, out of the general rate." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I must thank the noble Lord in charge of the Bill for his advice in connection with this Amendment. The object of the Amendment is to make the local authority in the City of London the Common Council. Under the Bill as it stands at present the local authority for the whole of London, including the City, would be the London County Council, who I understand have no objection to the alteration which I now propose.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 31, after ("defrayed") insert ("in the case of the Common Council of the City of London, out of the general rate").—(Lord Ebbisham.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEI am glad to accept this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 26:
§ Interpretation.
§
26. In this Act, unless the context other wise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say:—
Local authority" means as respects a county the council of the county and as respects a county borough the council of the borough:
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, the Amendment to this clause of which I have given Notice is consequential.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 39, leave out from ("section") to ("respectively") in line 40, and insert ("eleven, Section twelve, and Section thirteen").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD EBBISHAMMy Lords, the Amendment of which I have given Notice is also consequential. It is to insert certain words after "'Local authority' means."
§
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 10, after ("means") insert ("in London, as respects the City of London, the Common Council, as respects the rest of the administrative city of of London, the County Council, and elsewhere").—(Lord Ebbisham.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD PHILLIMORE had given Notice to move to insert "'Prescribed medicine' means medicines ordered on the prescription duly given by a duly qualified medical practitioner or by a registered dentist." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential to my Amendment to Clause 18 which was not accepted. Therefore I do not move it.
§ Clause 27 [Application to Scotland]:
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, the Amendments standing in my name are all consequential.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 25, line 12, leave out ("eleven") and insert ("thirteen")
§ page 25 line 31, leave out ("eighteen") and insert ("twenty")
§ page25 line 34, leave out ("Section twenty") and insert ("subsection (3) of Section twenty—two").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ First Schedule: