§ Insert as a new clause:
§ Provision as to large schemes of catchment boards.
§ .—(1) Where the estimated expenditure which will be incurred by a catchment board in respect of any scheme for the improvement of any existing works or the construct ion of any new works exceed fifty thousand pounds, or where the execution of any such scheme might involve in any year an addition to the rates (other than drainage rates) on that part of any county or county borough which is within the catchment area of more than twopence in the pound, the board shall not proceed with the execution of the scheme unless and until it has been approved by the Minister, either with or without modifications, and the Minister, in deciding whether or not to approve any such scheme, shall take into account the amount of any grant which he may think proper to make under this Act towards the expenditure to be incurred by the catchment board in respect of the scheme and the amount of the contributions which the internal drainage board may reasonably be required to make towards that expenditure.
§ (2) If application is made to the Minister under this section for the approval of a scheme, the Minister shall require the board to publish, in one or more newspapers circulating in the catchment area and otherwise as fie may direct, and to send to the council of every county and every county borough concerned, a notice containing such particulars with respect to the application and otherwise as he may direct and specifying the time (not being less than one month) within which and the manner in which objections may be made to the carrying out of the scheme, and, if any such objections are duly made, the Minister, before approving the scheme, shall cause a local public inquiry to be held.")
§ LORD BAYFORD moved to disagree with the proposal of the Commons to insert this new clause. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have an Amendment to disagree with the Commons proposal to insert on page 45 a new clause "Provision as to large schemes of catchment boards." I have already explained it, and I beg to move.
§ Moved, That this House doth disagree with the Commons in the said Amendment."—(Lord Bayford.)
§
LORD STRACHIE had given Notice to move that the new clause be disagreed to, and the following new clause inserted in lieu thereof:
1177
.A catchment board shall, before incurring any expenses under this Act, prepare, either annually or otherwise as they may think fit, and submit to the council of every county and county borough the whole or any part of the area of which is within the catchment area, an estimate of such expenses, and any such council, if aggrieved by the estimate either on the ground that it is excessive or that the works to which it relates are unnecessary, may, within six weeks after the date on which the estimate has been received by the council, appeal to the Minister against the estimate, and the Minister may, after considering any objections made to him make such an order in the matter as he thinks just and his decision shall be final.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Paper. The object of the Amendment is to provide that the estimates of any proposed expenditure by a catchment board should be submitted to the county councils and county boroughs concerned, and to give them leave, if they object, to appeal to the Minister within six weeks after the date on which such estimate has been received by the council in question. Of course the decision of the Minister would be final in the matter, and it is only if there is real ground for objection that he should be appealed to. May I point out, on behalf of the County Councils Association, for whom I am speaking, that an internal drainage board has exactly the same privilege as I am asking for the county councils of submitting to the Minister within six weeks any objection it may have to proposed expenditure which has been submitted to it by a catchment board. It seems to me only fair, therefore, that county councils should be treated in exactly the same way as the internal drainage board and only reasonable that they should have knowledge of what the expenditure is going to be. Those of your Lordships who are members of county councils know very well that in making up the budget for the year it is very necessary that a council should be able to look forward and see exactly what expenditure is required in the future, in order to determine whether the rates may he increased or decreased as the case may be. The catchment boards are thoroughly protected in this matter because, as I say, the Minister will have the last word. I may be told that the limitation of the rate to twopence, which has already been 1178 put into the Bill, must be taken into consideration here. But I cannot see what that has to do with it at all.
§ I would point out that this provision was pressed very strongly on the Government the other day in another place by a Labour Member, an ex-Cabinet Minister, Colonel Wedgwood, who said that he could not see why there should not be an opportunity for consultation regarding these matters between catchment boards and county councils. He regarded this provision as very desirable. For the life of me I cannot see why such a reasonable proposal on the part of the County Councils Association should be rejected by the noble Earl, though after my explanation he may take a more favourable view. It is not at all a Party question because, as I have said already, an ex-member of the Labour Cabinet said in another place that he saw no objection to it. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 53 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Strachie.)
§ EARL DE LA WARRMy Lords, I am afraid the Government cannot agree with this Amendment. As I think I said in regard to the noble Lord, Lord Bayford's Amendment, we have already gone as far as we can in the direction of protecting the county councils. We have gone a very long way, and I am afraid we cannot go any further.
§ LORD STRACHIEWhat is the objection to submitting these estimates to county councils? There cannot be any great objection.
§ On Question, Amendment proposed in lieu of the Commons Amendment negatived.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to and Commons Amendment disagreed to accordingly.