HL Deb 25 July 1930 vol 78 cc904-16

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1 [Local authority may declare unhealthy area to be clearance area]:

LORD MARLEY moved, in subsection (1), after "inhabitants", to insert "of the area." The noble Lord said: This is a verbal Amendment.

Amendment moved⁁ Page 2, line 3, after ("inhabitants") insert ("of the area").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 [Clearance Orders]:

LORD MARLEY

There are three drafting and clearing up Amendments on this clause. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 12, leave out ("parties") and insert ("owners")

Page 4, line 13, leave out ("parties") and insert ("owners")

Page 4, line 14, leave out ("as shall be nominated") and insert ("nominated on the application of the outhority or any of the owners").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 [Treatment of clearance area]:

Loan MARLEY

The first Amendment of this clause is drafting, and the second consequential.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 29, after ("shall") insert ("as soon as may be cause every building thereon to be vacated and")

Page 4, line 32, after ("operations") insert ("shall").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 [Local authority may declare unhealthy area to be improvement area]:

LORD MARLEY

There is a drafting Amendment here also.

Amendment moved— Page 6, lines 8 and 9, leave out ("repair, demolition or closing as the circumstances may require") and insert ("execution of works on or the demolition or closing").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 7 to 9 agreed to.

Clause 10 [Provisions as to purchase of land]:

LORD MARLEY

There is a drafting Amendment here also.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 2, leave out ("for the purposes of") and insert ("under").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 11 [Validity and date of operation of clearance orders and compulsory purchase orders]:

LORD MARLEY

The next Amendment is inserted to make this clause follow the similar clause in the English Bill. It was moved and carried by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, during the debate on that Bill. It is virtually a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 11, leave out from ("Sederunt") to ("that") in line 18, and insert "so however, that the application shall be dealt with in a summary manner, and where such application is duly made: the court—

  1. "(i) may by interim order suspend the operation of the order either generally or in so far as it affects any property of the applicant until the final determination of the proceedings; and
  2. "(ii) if satisfied, upon the hearing of the application."—(Lord Marley.)

Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 12 and 13 agreed to.

Clause 14 [Power of local authority to order repair of insanitary house]:

LORD MARLEY

This is a drafting Amendment, and I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 13, lines 8 to 9, leave out ("can be carried out at a reasonable expense and"). —(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15 agreed to.

Clause 16 [Power of local authority to order demolition or closing of insanitary house]:

LORD MARLEY

This is a manuscript Amendment which is really only drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 15, line 31, leave out from ("make") to ("a") in line 33.—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MARLEY

This is also a manuscript Amendment, and is drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 15, line 41, after ("vacated") insert ("and shall serve the order upon every person upon whom they would be required by subsection (1) of this section to servo a notice issued by them under that subsection").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 17 to 24 agreed to.

Clause 25 [Periodical revision of scale of contribution for the purposes of subsequent rehousing schemes]:

LORD MARLEY

This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 26, line 1, leave out ("whom") and insert ("whose displacement").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 25, as a amended, agreed to.

Clause 26 agreed to.

Clause 27:

Recovery of possession of buildings subject to clearance, demolition or closing order. (2) Any expenses incurred by a local authority under this section in obtaining possession of any building or house or part thereof may be recovered by them from the owner of the building or house in a summary manner but a local authority shall not be entitled to recover any expenses under this subsection unless the owner has failed to make within a reasonable time a summary application for removal and ejection to the sheriff, or having made such an application has failed to take all steps necessary to have the application disposed of within a reasonable time.

THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW moved, in subsection (2), after "subsection", to insert "(a) in the case of premises included in a clearance order which are not specified therein as being unfit for human habitation or dangerous or injurious to health, or (b) in the case of any other premises." The noble Marquess said: I understand that the Amendment as printed on the Paper is not unacceptable to His Majesty's Government. I think it explains itself, and therefore I will not trouble your Lordships further. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 28, line 6, after ("subsection") insert the said new words.—(The Marquess of Linlithgow.)

LORD MARLEY

We are quite prepared to accept this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.

CLAUSE 28 [Duty of local authority to have regard to amenities of locality, etc.]:

LORD MARLEY

This is an Amendment which follows the English clause. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 28, line 35, leave out ("natural"). —(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

After Clause 28 there is Lord Marley's proposed new clause on the Paper and there is a clause in manuscript in the name of the Earl of Lauderdale.

LORD MARLEY moved, after Clause 28, to insert the following new clause:—

Power of sheriff to determine lease where premises demolished.

"—(1) Where any premises in respect of which a clearance order or a demolition order made under this Act has become operative form the subject matter of a lease, either the landlord or the tenant or any other person deriving right thereunder may apply to the sheriff within whose jurisdiction the premises are situate for an order determining the lease.

(2) Upon any such application as aforesaid the sheriff, after giving to any subtenant or other person whom he considers to be interested in the matter an opportunity of being heard, may, if he thinks fit, order that the lease shall be determined, either unconditionally or subject to such terms and conditions (including conditions with respect to the payment of money by any party to the proceedings to any other party thereto by way of compensation or damages or otherwise) as he may think it just and equitable to impose, regard being had to the respective rights, obligations and liabilities of the parties under the lease and all the other circumstances of the case: provided that the sheriff shall not be entitled to order any payment to be made by the landlord to the tenant in respect of the lease of a dwelling-house.

(3) In this section the expression lease includes a sub-lease and any tenancy or agreement for a lease or sub-lease and tacit relocation following on a lease."

The noble Lord said: This proposed new clause explains itself. It says that the sheriff may, if he thinks fit, order that a lease may be determined. That is to say, we do not want an outstanding lease to stand in the way of the operation of these clearance schemes and, therefore, this new clause is proposed. In that connection there has been considerable discussion with regard to a manuscript Amendment and an agreement has been reached whereby we have included the following words at the end of subsection (2) of the new clause— provided that the sheriff shall not be entitled to order any payment to be made by the landlord to the tenant in respect of the lease of a dwelling-house. That manuscript Amendment is in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale. We have come to an agreement about it, and I trust that the clause with the addition will be accepted by your Lordships. I beg to move.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

I understand that Lord Marley moves it in the amended form, with the proviso?

LORD MARLEY

Yes.

Amendment moved— After Clause 28, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Marley.)

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

I thank the Minister in charge of the Bill for accepting this Amendment and for meeting us in this matter.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clauses 29 to 31 agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW moved, after Clause 31, to insert the following new clause—

Certificate of execution of works.

.—(1) It shall be competent for a local authority to issue to the owner of any dwelling-house occupied by persons of the working classes a certificate that works of reconditioning, repair, or reconstruction have been executed to their satisfaction, and to fix in the said certificate a period of not less than two or more than five years, after which the condition of the dwelling-house shall be further reviewed.

(2) If such dwelling-house is compulsorily closed, demolished, or purchased during the period of currency of the said certificate, otherwise than for some disrepair or sanitary defect which was not in existence at the time the certificate was granted and which renders the dwelling-house injurious or dangerous to health, compensation shall be assessed in accordance with subsection (3) of Section twelve of this Act."

The noble Marquess said: The new clause which stands on the Paper in my name explains itself. It is important to many owners in Scotland, and I am certain that the Government and the noble Lord in charge of the Bill will agree that it is extremely important in this matter that owners throughout Scotland, when they are good owners and carry out their responsibilities and duties, should feel that they are not to be penalised under this Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 29, line 36, insert the said new clause.—(The Marquess of Linlithgow.)

LORD MARLEY

I feel a great deal of sympathy with the intention of the Amendment, but I would suggest to the noble Marquess who moved it that in point of fact the owner who makes a house fit for human habitation is fully protected in the Bill as it stands. A house which is properly repaired will remain fit for a very long time, and should last for many years if the work is properly done. A fit house will always get the market value. We want to avoid the jerry builder gaining under this clause. I suggest that under the proposed new clause a man who slaps some paint over the damaged part of a house and generally paints over dirt and worn out materials might be able to gain a certificate. We do not desire, and no one of your Lordships would desire, to protect the sham repairer or the jerry building repairer. I venture to suggest that, perhaps, the noble Marquess would accept the position as it stands and with- draw his Amendment.

THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW

I confess to some disappointment that the Government will not accept this new clause. As the noble Lord in charge of this Bill is aware, a clause of this nature was moved in another place boy my hon. friend Major Elliot. Various points were made against that clause by the spokesman of the Government, and I have sought and I think I have succeeded in meeting every single one of those points of criticism. In view, however, of the noble Lord's explanation, I am not prepared to take the Amendment to a Division, and I ask leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clauses 32 and 33 agreed to.

Clause 34 [Amendment of s. 51 of principal Act]:

LORD MARLEY moved to insert at the end of the clause:— (2) The proviso to section fifty-one of the principal Act shall have effect as if for the words forms part of any park garden or pleasure ground or is otherwise required for the amenity or convenience of any house' there were substituted the words forms part of any park garden or pleasure ground occupied together with and required for the amenity or convenience of any house'.

The noble Lord said: This insertion is made to follow the English Bill. It was asked for by the London County Council. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 31, line 29, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 35 [Provisions with respect to official representations]:

LORD MARLEY

This and the following Amendment in my name are drafting.

Amendment moved—

Page 31, line 30, after ("of") insert ("this or").

Page 32, line 10, at end insert ("of the authority").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 35, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 36 [Power of Department to enforce exercise of powers by local authorities]:

Loan MARLEY

My Lords, the two Amendments in my name upon this clause are drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved— Page 32, line 36, after ("under") insert ("this or"). Page 33, line 25, after ("under") insert ("this or").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 36, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 37:

Complaint to Department by tenant or occupier with regard to water supply, etc.

37. If the tenant or occupier of a dwelling-house is aggrieved by any decision of a local authority with respect to the provision of a water supply or a water closet for the house or the execution of works necessary to render the house fit for human habitation he may, in any case where no appeal to the sheriff has been taken against such decision, complain to the Department who may cause a local inquiry to be held, and if as a result of such inquiry they are of opinion that the local authority have not required the provision of such water supply or water closet or the execution of such works as they should have required, the Department may make an order rendering exercisable by themselves such powers of the local authority in the matter as may be specified in their order and any such order may contain such directions as appear necessary with regard to any notice given by the local authority relating to the house.

THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW moved, after the first "closet," to insert "or where this is not practicable, an earth closet." The noble Marquess said: There are circumstances in which it extremely difficult to arrange for a water closet for a dwelling of this nature. The difficulties may arise through lack of fall in the ground, and a faulty water closet is a far greater menace to health than some other suitable arrangement. I very much hope that the Government will agree to this Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 33, line 29, after ("closet") insert ("or where this is not practicable, an earth closet").—(The Marquess of Linlithgow.)

LORD MARLEY

The Government would prefer the words in the subsequent Amendment standing in my name to those in the Amendment of the noble Marquess. It is substantially the same thing, but we rather prefer the words that I have put down, and I hope the noble Marquess will accept them.

THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW

I am prepared to accept the Government Amendment, and beg leave to withdraw mine.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments moved— Page 33, line 29, after ("closet") insert ("or earth closet"). Page 33, line 27, after ("closet") insert ("or earth closet").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 37, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 38 agreed to.

Clause 39 [Power of Department to withhold contributions in event of default]:

LORD MARLEY

The Amendment in my name is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 34, line 40, after ("this") insert ("or the principal").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 39, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 40 to 47 agreed to.

Clause 48:

Interpretation.

48.—(1) For the purposes of this Act and of the principal Act, unless the context otherwise requires—

the expression "disrepair" includes deficiency in respect of internal painting and papering or distempering of walls, except in so far as any such deficiency is attributable to the wilful default or neglect of the occupants of the house, and is not likely to injure or endanger their health; and

LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON moved, in subsection (1), in the definition of "disrepair," to leave out all words after "includes" and to insert "such deficiency in respect of internal painting and papering or distempering of walls as is likely to injure or endanger the health of the occu pants of the house, except in so far as any such deficiency is attributable to the default or neglect of the said occupants." The noble Lord said: In this Amendment the proposed new definition of "disrepair" is intended to make it clear that decorative painting and papering are excluded. The definition was inserted in the Bill on the Report stage in another place, and some concern was felt that the definition might be interpreted to include decorative work. Mr. MacRobert therefore moved an Amendment in another place which was supported by Sir John Gilmour, to add the words "which renders the house unfit for human habitation" after the word "walls" in line 16 on page 77 of the Bill. The Lord Advocate replied that it was never intended to include decorative work, and that he did not think the word "disrepair" did cover such work. He was possibly right.

The word "disrepair" first occurs in line 15 on page 1 of the Bill, and the expression used is as follows: "dwelling-houses are by reason of disrepair or sanitary defects unfit for human habitation." The context therefore makes it clear that the disrepair must make the house unfit for human habitation. In the definition itself, however, without the context, this is not so. The definition might be referred to by itself, however, in a later Act, and it is for this reason that I am suggesting that the definition should be in accordance with my Amendment. The deficiency must be such as to be a source of danger to the health of the inhabitants. I am of the opinion that if the clause is altered in accordance with my Amendment there will be no ambiguity as to what is meant either now or in some later Act, and I hope the Government, therefore, can see their way to accept this Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 37, line 14, leave out from ("includes") in line 14 to ("and") in line 20 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Fairfax of Cameron.)

LORD MARLEY

The Amendment as moved would prevent the Government from doing one thing which they are very anxious to do, and that is to include bad papering or painting or bad distempering as one element in the reasons for a house being unfit for human habitation, and this Amendment, I am advised, would prevent us from considering bad painting, bad papering or bad distempering as even an element to be taken into account when we are considering whether a house is unfit for human habitation or not. Therefore I am bound to resist the Amendment as it appears upon the Paper, out I think there is a general feeling that there should be some modification of the clause as printed, and, therefore, if the House would agree to leave this matter for discussion so as to bring it into line with possible Amendments in the English Bill, it would be advisable. We could then get one definition which would be the same in both Bills. I think perhaps it would be the wisest course if your Lordships would consent to that, and I suggest we should leave the matter like that.

LORD LAMINGTON

I rather hope my noble friend behind me will press his Amendment. No reason is given why bad papering or bad distempering would be injurious to health. It seems to me ridiculous to suggest such a thing. "Bad painting" is a very elastic term. I hope the noble Lord will abide by his Amendment.

LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON

If the noble Lord, Lord Marley, would allow us to put the Amendment in now and establish the principle which has been established already in the English Bill, I think that would be the best course. We should then be able to discuss the matter with him between now and Report stage. We would like to get the principle into the Bill to-day if we can.

LORD MARLEY

I do not feel I can resist the suggestion of the noble Lord, and so I propose to accept it under those conditions—that we shall bring the two into agreement, and meet the general position indicated by the noble Lord in his Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MARLEY

The next Amendment in my name is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 37, line 22, after ("or") insert ("of").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 48, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 49 [Amendment of principal Act., etc.]:

LORD MARLEY

The remaining Amendments to the Bill are drafting Amendments.

Amendment moved— Page 38, line 2, leave out ("repair") and insert ("execution of works on or the").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 49, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 50 [Repeals]:

Amendment moved— Page 38, line 38, leave out ("has been made").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 50, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

First Schedule agreed to.

Second Schedule [Compulsory purchase orders]:

Amendment moved— Page 45, line 9, leave out ("sub-paragraph (ii)") and insert ("sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii)").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Third Schedule agreed to.

Fourth Schedule [Minor and Consequential Amendments of the principal Act]:

Amendments moved— Page 47, line 21, leave out ("repairs") and insert ("works") Page 47, line 31, leave out ("repairs") and in-Sort ("works") Page 47, line 34, leave out ("repairs") and insert ("works").—(Lord Marley.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Fourth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining Schedules agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I would like to ask the Govern- ment about the next stage of the Bill. It appears from what the noble Lord said just now that an effort is to be made to assimilate many of the provisions of the Scottish Bill to the English Bill. The form of the English Bill will not be finally decided until Monday next when the Third Reading is taken. It will, therefore, be almost impossible to take the Report Stage of the Scottish Bill until we know the form the English Bill is going to take. I would, suggest, therefore, that the Report Stage of the Scottish Bill should be postponed until Tuesday so as to give us time to see how the English Bill emerges.

LORD MARLEY

My Lords, I do not think the idea was to assimilate the Scottish Bill to the English Bill. The Scottish Bill is a far better Bill. A good many of these assimilations will be matters for discussion and agreement. Perhaps I might refer the matter to my noble friend the Leader of the House and ask him to consider whether this matter should be taken on Tuesday instead of Monday?

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

As to which Bill should be assimilated to which Bill, that is a delicate matter on which I would not like to enter, but it is not sufficient to say that where assimilation is to take place that can be done by agreement. I am obliged to the noble Lord for his promise to convey the message I have ventured to give him to the Leader of the House.