HL Deb 20 March 1928 vol 70 cc505-13

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)

LORD HARRIS

My Lords, the noble Earl the Lord Chairman advises me that this is perhaps the correct moment, or the least incorrect moment, at which to ventilate my grievance, not for the first time. Your Lordships will observe that wider Clause 5 of this Bill it is to be the duty of the council of every county or county borough to enforce within the county or county borough the provisions of this Bill. More expense, therefore, will be laid upon the unfortunate ratepayer. I believe that if the Public Health (Destruction of Vermin) Bill had been discussed to-night, it would have been possible to say on that Bill also that the charge for administering it is laid upon the unfortunate ratepayer. What is the use of the Chancellor of the Exchequer going round the country expressing sympathy with the ratepayer when the Government allow, and indeed assist, various interested and anxious legislators to pass such legislation? I think there are four or five Bills in the boxes on the Table in your Lordships' House, every one of which, for all I know, may contain provisions to throw the cost of administration on the ratepayers. What use is it for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to go round the country expressing sympathy when, in many Acts which are passed, this is done?

There is no suggestion in this Bill, so far as I can see—my noble friend below me will correct me if I am wrong—that the Public Exchequer should assist the ratepayer as is done in many cases. Of course it is no use attempting to move anything in regard to that—it would be contrary to privilege—and therefore one has to accept the position. But I take every opportunity—I did so last Session on the Nursing Homes (Registration) Bill, which also laid responsibility on county councils—of calling attention to this in the hope that county councils will bring some pressure to bear upon their county members. That is where there is laxity. If they were continually to impress upon their county members that Bills are laying more charges upon the rates, there might be some chance of Parliament paying attention to this, which I think is a real grievance.

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF STRADBROKE)

My Lords, in reply to what the noble Lord has just said, had he been here last week he would have heard a statement that it is not expected that any extra expense will be incurred by county councils in administering this measure. There are very few places that will have to be registered for the storage of chilled eggs and the chemical storage of eggs, and we think that the number of officers now employed by the county councils and municipal authorities will be sufficient for the carrying out of arty inspections that will be necessary should the Bill become an Act.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2:

Grade designation marks.

2.—(1) Regulations made by the Minister under this Act may prescribe such mark (in this Act referred to as a "grade designation mark") as he may consider appropriate to represent any grade designation, and may make provision for authorizing, or empowering any person or body of persons to authorise, subject to such conditions as may be attached to the authorisation, the marking with a grade designation mark of any covering containing, or label attached to, articles in respect of which such a mark has been prescribed.

(2) Any person who uses any covering or label marked with a grade designation mark, whether the covering or label was so marked by him or by some other person, shall be deemed for the purposes of the last foregoing section to use, in connection with any article which is contained in the covering or to which the label is attached, the grade designation represented by the mark.

THE EARL OF STRADBROKE moved, in subsection (1), before "covering," to insert "article in respect of which such a mark has been prescribed or of any." The noble Earl said: When this Bill was introduced it was thought that it would be sufficient that the grade designation should be applied only to the covering or label or wrapper. Since then it has become apparent that it may be desirable to apply the grade mark to the goods themselves, such as bacon or cheese. For that reason I move the insertion of the words which appear on the Paper.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 12, at end insert ("article in respect of which such a mark has been prescribed or of any").—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF STRADBROKE moved to omit the words "articles in respect of which such a mark has been prescribed" in subsection (1), and to insert "any such article." The noble Earl said: This Amendment is consequential on the one just passed.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 13, leave out from ("to") to the end of the subsection, and insert ("any such article").—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to add to subsection (1): "and the Regulations shall provide for an appeal to a court of summary jurisdiction by any person who may be aggrieved by a refusal of authority to use a grade designation mark." The noble Viscount said: If your lordships will look at Clause 2 of the Bill, you will see that Regulations made by the Minister may prescribe and may make provision for authorising or empowering any person or body of persons to authorise the marking with a grade designation mark of any articles in respect of which such a mark has been prescribed. I think the noble Earl on the Second Reading of this Bill said that this mark would be a very valuable asset. It seems to me that if any one is aggrieved by the refusal of authority to use a grade designation mark he ought to have the right to appeal. I think a court of summary jurisdiction is the best for cheapness and by reason of being at hand, and is in every way appropriate. I therefore beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 14, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

THE EARL OF STRADBROKE

The Bill as it stands at present provides that the grade designation mark may be used by any person authorised to use it by the Minister, or by any person or body of persons authorised by him to give that authority. The intention of the Minister is to consult with the National Farmers Union and other organisations who are well acquainted with the conditions both of producers and of those who are interested in the marketing of goods, and after that consultation to form committees, who will have power to grant the use of these grade marks. It is essential, I think, for the proper working of the Bill, that the discretion as to whether a person may or may not use the grade designation mark should be in the hands of experts, who understand what they are doing. I think the noble Viscount, on consideration, will perhaps agree with me that it is much better that the discretion should be in the hands of experts, and that it should not be left to a court of summary jurisdiction to decide this question. It is not a criminal question. I hope therefore he will not press his Amendment.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

It is perfectly competent for a court of summary jurisdiction to have expert advisers, as is done in many cases in the Law Courts. However, I will not press my Amendment to a Division.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE EARL OF STRADBROKE

The next five Amendments on the Paper are all consequential on the first Amendment.

Amendments moved— Page 2, line 15, after ("who") insert ("sells or delivers or exposes or offers for sale any article marked with a grade designation mark, or who"), and at end insert ("so") Page 2, line 16, leave out ("with a grade designation mark"), and at end insert ("article") Page 2, line 19, after ("with") insert ("the article marked or in connection with") Page 2, line 21, after ("attached") insert ("as the case may be,") Page 2, line 38, after ("any") insert ("article").—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3:

Marking of preserved eggs.

3. Subject as hereinafter provided, it shall not, after the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, be lawful to sell or expose for sale any egg which has been subjected to any process of preservation unless the egg is marked in the prescribed manner, and any person who acts in contravention of this section shall be liable on summary conviction in the case of a first offence to a fine not exceeding five pounds, and in the case of a second or subsequent offence to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds:

Provided that the Minister shall by order exempt from the operation of this section eggs preserved by any process with respect to which he is satisfied that the marking of imported eggs preserved by that process cannot be enforced.

THE EARL OF STBADBROKE moved, in the proviso, to leave out "imported." The noble Earl said: This is a drafting Amendment. The proviso as it stands enables the Minister to exempt eggs from the operation of the clause where he is satisfied that the enforcement of the provisions of the clause is impracticable. Therefore the word "imported" is not necessary.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 15, leave out ("imported").—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4:

Cold and chemical storage of eggs.

4.—(1) Any premises used or intended to be used by way of trade or for purposes of gain for the cold storage or chemical storage of eggs may be registered in the prescribed manner in a register kept by the council of the county or county borough in which the premises are situated, in accordance with regulations made by the Minister under this Act.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "may" and insert "shall". The noble Viscount said: If your Lordships will turn to column 419 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, you will see that in the Second Reading debate on this Bill the noble Earl in charge of it said: It is not possible to detect by analysis whether eggs have been preserved in this way, and consequently they cannot be brought under the provisions of Clause 3. Such methods are, however, dealt with in Clause 4, where it is laid down that any premises used for cold storage or chemical storage of eggs must be registered, and all eggs intended to be preserved in this way must, before being brought into the registered premises, be marked in an appropriate manner. That is not quite borne out by the words of the Bill, and it is in order to bring it into conformity with what the noble Earl said that I move my Amendment. I think it better, instead of making optional, to make it compulsory.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 19, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

THE EARL OF STRADBROKE

I think that the noble Viscount is under a misapprehension as to this word. A reference to the clause will show that the prohibition against the use of premises for the cold storage or chemical storage of eggs for gain by way of trade becomes operative only if and when an Order in Council requiring the marking of imported eggs is in force. This being so, the first subsection of the clause is necessarily only optional until such Order is made, and it is for this reason that "may" is inserted rather than "shall," so that in the meantime the authorities concerned can, if they wish, proceed with the registration of premises where eggs are likely to be stored when the Order comes into force. I hope, therefore, that the noble Viscount will withdraw his Amendment.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 4 agreed to.

Clause 5:

Enforcement and expenses.

5. It shall be the duty of the council of every county or county borough to enforce within their county or county borough the provisions of this Act, and for that purpose to appoint such officers as may be necessary, and any expenses incurred by a council under this Act shall be defrayed in the case of a county council as part of their expenses for generai county purposes, and in the case of a county borough, out of the borough fund or the borough rate:

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, before "appoint," to insert "keep such registers and". The noble Viscount said: One of the duties imposed under Clause 4 on the local authority is the keeping of registers, and it seems only right that these words should be inserted. The duties that they have to carry out are in part enumerated, but the duty to keep registers is not mentioned.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 5, after ("to") insert ("keep such registers and").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

THE EARL OF STRADBROKE

The registration by the council of the county or county borough is already provided for in Clause 4, which provides for Regulations being made and prescribes the manner in which registers must be kept by the local authority. It is most desirable that they should be kept in conformity with the Regulations that are made. This Amendment would allow each local authority to make its own regulations, and there might be disparity in the different registers that were kept. I do not think that there is any necessity for the insertion of these words, and I hope that the noble Viscount will withdraw his Amendment.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

I should not have thought it necessary to move this Amendment had not the words "to appoint such officers as may be necessary" been put in. But I will not press the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn

LORD HARRIS

I hope that I shall not offend if I comment on the retort that my noble friend below me made in regard to Clause 5. It gives me no comfort at all, for it does not hold out any hope of the Government contributing to these expenses of local authorities, but merely expresses the hope that the expenditure will not be great. I have heard this hope expressed before and it has not been realised. It is obvious from the clause that the expense is to be borne by the county council. The Bill means more inspection officers, and I am very much afraid that if it is successful, as I suppose the Government hope that it may be, it will mean that a great number of places will have to be inspected.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)

I am quite sure that your Lordships will believe that my noble friend is only forcing an open door when he says that we should desire to restrain undue local expenditure. I do not think that my noble friend quarrels with the substance of this Bill, and he thinks it is a Bill which might reasonably be passed. No Bill, of course, can be passed unless you provide the machinery under which it is to work, and machinery necessarily costs certain small sums. That is an incident of all legislation. My noble friend's protest, with which I greatly sympathise, really only comes to this, that the expenses are to be thrown rather on the ratepayer than on the taxpayer.

LORD HARRIS

Partly.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My noble friend's interruption really brings me to the point of what I rose to say. His observations have really raised a much bigger question than is contained in the four corners of Clause 5. They really raise the whole question of how far we are right in the policy hitherto pursued in this country of throwing the burden of this kind of legislation upon the local authorities, and that in its turn raises the whole question or the relations between Imperial and local taxation. I cannot help thinking that we shall have to talk a great deal about this subject in the course of the present Session, but I hope that my noble friend will not press us on the present occasion.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Clause 7:

Interpretation.

7. In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say:— Chemical storage" includes storage for the purpose of preserving eggs by any process which does not alter the composition of the shells, including storage in any gas, vapour or gaseous mixture: Prescribed" means prescribed by regulation made under this Act:

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in the definition of "chemical storage," to leave out "includes" and to insert "means." The noble Viscount said: I am legally advised that, unless "means" replaces "includes," there will be no definition in the Bill of chemical storage.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 37, leave out ("includes") and insert ("means").—(Viscount Bertie Thame.)

THE EARL OF STRADBROKE

I think that on the whole the word suggested by the noble Viscount is an improvement upon that in the Bill, and I am glad to accept his Amendment.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

I am very much obliged to the noble Earl.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF STRADBROKE

My last Amendment is purely drafting, to add certain words to the definition of "prescribed."

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 10, at end insert ("by the Minister").—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.