§ LORD STRACHIE had given Notice to call attention to the statement in The Times that the Imperial Economic Committee have presented two Reports in regard to the subsidy of £1,000,000 for assisting the marketing of Dominion produce in Great Britain to the prejudice of the British producer; and to move for Papers.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I placed this Motion on the Paper in order to call your Lordships' attention to a statement made in the political notes of The Times. As your Lordships are aware, the political notes in The Times are generally very well informed and the Government often takes the opportunity of making announcements through that, medium. What is said in those notes is that they understand that an announcement will shortly be made regarding the Imperial Economic Committee. I should like to ask the noble Earl who is in charge of this question and who I understand is to reply to me, what is meant by "shortly." I have noticed that the Colonial Secretary is being constantly asked about this matter by agricultural Members in another place and that he never will give a direct answer. He says that it will be dealt with at some other time and also, of course, that Parliament will have to have a vote upon it.
§ It is stated in The Times that
§ The second Report dealt with meat, while a third, on the marketing of Dominion fruit, should be ready for presentation about a month from now."
§
I suppose, therefore, we may take it that this question will not be dealt with until after the Easter Recess. I am hoping that the noble Earl will tell me that not only will an opportunity be given of dismissing in another place the proposal to give a subsidy of £1,000,000 to the Dominions for assisting the marketing of Dominion produce in Great Britain, but that your Lordships' House will have an opportunity also of expressing an opinion on this policy of assisting the Dominion farmer at the expense of the British farmer. Then it is stated that
it is expected that the Government will agree to set up the new Board with little further delay, but the question whether the Imperial Economic Committee shall continue its work will probably be left over for decision by the Imperial Conference.
547
That seems to be rather a muddling way of doing things. The money is to be voted and yet it is not known what the Committee is going to be. It is stated that there will be a little further delay, but that the question whether the Committee shall continue its work will probably be left over—that is, until October, when I understand the Imperial Conference will meet.
§ If it is decided to continue the Committee it will deal next, I understand, with agricultural and dairy produce; so that, so far as one can make out, the Government means with this million of money to attack not only the various interests of meat and fruit but the dairy interest as well. I use the word "attack" because it certainly is an attack of a. certain kind. The object of the subsidy is to facilitate the advertising and cheaper marketing of goods coming from the Dominions, in order that they may be able to be sold at a cheaper rate in the British market. Otherwise, what is the object of giving the subsidy? I shall probably be, told by the noble Earl that it is owing to the pledge given during the Election, in which the then Protectionist Government was defeated, that there should be Preferential Duties imposed. It seems to me that we should stand or fall by what happened at that Election in 1924. This country then pronounced very strongly against Protection and it might be taken, I think, to have pronounced with equal strength against Preferential Duties. Apparently, the Prime Minister thinks that, although he was defeated on the project for Protection generally, he is at liberty to give Protection to Colonial produce by means of a subsidy to the Colonial farmers to compete in Great Britain to the prejudice of the British producer.
§
What has been the effect of the announcement of this subsidy? It has been denounced by the National Farmers' Union very strongly indeed. I hold in my hand the Year Book lately published by the National Farmers' Union. Whether they approve of the National Farmers' Union or not the Government have agreed, I think, that they certainly have a great right to speak as representing the farmers of this country, and their view regarding this subsidy of £1,000,000 is one which the Government can hardly afford to neglect or to regard as of no
548
On page 100 of the Year Book of the National Farmers' Union for 1926, this statement will be found:—
An Imperial Economic Committee has been appointed to make recommendations in respect to the utilisation of the Government grant of £1,000,000 per annum to foster the marketing of Empire produce in neat Britain. Although a part of the Empire so close to us as the Irish Free State is accorded representation of its interests on the Committee, the food producers of Great Britain are shut out from that Imperial conclave, and must content themselves with helping as taxpayers to undermine their own industry by assisting their oversea competitors.
That is the deliberate opinion of this great organisation—that the British farmer will be called upon to help the British taxpayer to undermine the agricultural industry at home.
There is also this statement:—
The National Farmers' Union does not question the soundness of the principles on which the Empire Settlement policy is based, but the Union does challenge the fairness of utilising the taxpayers' money to stimulate food production overseas without the slightest provision being made to safeguard the interests of, let alone stimulate, food production at home.
I think we ought to stimulate and give all assistance to Empire produce, apart from a subsidy, in order that such produce might compete with foreign produce in this country. But that is an entirely different matter to enabling the Dominions to compete here against the British farmer with the assistance of the British taxpayer. It is extraordinary, when we are always being reminded of the need for economy, that we should be taxed to provide £1,000,000 so that the Dominion farmer might have an advantage over the British producer in the home market. It is all the more so when one reflects that His Majesty's Government laid it down in the White Paper on Agricultural Policy, which was discussed the other day by your Lordships, that they would no longer be Protectionists but Free Traders and had decided to give no subsidies of any kind to the British farmer. One would have thought that the Government might very fairly have said to the Dominions: "We are not going to do anything of the kind. We are going in for Free Trade and are opposed to subsidies, so we cannot give you this sum of £1,000,000 a year."
§ It is rather interesting that in another place the Secretary of State for Dominion 549 Affairs, Mr. Amery, was asked whether it was true that the Prime Minister of Australia and other Dominion representatives had not said that in the first place British markets belonged to the home producer. That being so, surely the Prime Minister of this country might say exactly the same thing as the Prime Minister of Australia and the representatives of other Dominions have said: "As your goods are coming here we do not want to keep them out. We believe in legitimate competition, but we certainly cannot give you any assistance which would be detrimental to our own people." One would think that the Government would not wish to do so after making those declarations.
§ I should like to ask once more what is exactly the position of the Government in this matter. I know that they have changed their minds a good deal about it, and I should like to ask them to change their minds once more. When this question was first mooted I drew attention to it at a meeting of the Council of Agriculture for England. The then Minister of Agriculture got my question shelved and a Committee appointed. That Committee, after a good deal of pressure, produced a Report. I am sorry that Lord Clinton, who was Chairman of that Committee, is not here to-night. The Committee reported that the Government were going to allow the English farmer to have some share in this money. But to what extent? Apparently only to the extent of giving a subsidy on the exportation abroad of pedigree cattle. That is a good thing for the big farmer, but it does not afford the slightest help to the small man. All that goes on under this proposal would be detrimental to the small man, whether he is a dairy farmer or a fruit producer. We know in the West of England that the bounties which are given to Colonial fruit coming to this country act most unfairly against our own people, and have a most detrimental effect upon the prices of our apples and other fruits.
§ I cannot help thinking that it would be much better, if it is the case that the Government are going to do something, that they should say: "We will make it fifty-fifty." Instead of giving a whole million to the Colonies they might give half of it to the English producer. They should go the whole hog, and acknowledge 550 that they have made a mistake, and that there is a very strong opinion in the country against giving this subsidy to Dominion produce. That is shown by the fact that the great organisation of farmers, the National Farmers' Union, have declared against it, and stated that they thoroughly object to it. I hope the Government will take due notice of that expression of opinion, though I must admit that the Government do not seem to care very much about the opinion of the National Farmers' Union on any question. They showed that by passing the Tithe Act against the express wishes, so far as its details were concerned, of the Farmers' Union. The late chairman of the union, Mr. Robins, not so long ago said that it would be absolutely necessary, in fairness to the tithepayer, to have that Bill amended. I hope we may have some clear statement on this matter, and also an assurance from the Government that when they have made up their mind what they are going to do, they will give us an opportunity before the whole thing is settled in another place of expressing our opinion here upon it. I beg to move.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF CLARENDON)My Lords, in the first instance, in reply to my noble friend Lord Strachie, I think I should say that he is labouring somewhat under a misapprehension so far as this question is concerned when he says that the recommendations of the Imperial Economic Committee will in any way act prejudicially to British agricultural interests. I can assure him that there is absolutely no desire and no intention on the part of His Majesty's Government that that should be so. The views of His Majesty's Government have, I think, been fully expressed by my noble friend Lord Peel, in a speech that he made in your Lordships' House on March 26, 1925. He then made it quite clear, in answer to a Question put by my noble friend Lord Strachie, that His Majesty's Government were not to be regarded as accepting the suggestion in that Question and to-day's, that the grant for Empire marketing would operate to the prejudice of the British producer.
I should like to state quite clearly that His Majesty's Government are fully alive 551 to the interests of the home producer, and in this connection I would draw your Lordships' attention once more to the. White Paper on Agricultural Policy, in which it is most clearly stated that the Government propose to include home produce within the scope of any assistance that may be given to the marketing of Empire produce. If we turn to the Report of the Imperial Economic Committee on the marketing of Empire foodstuffs—Command Paper No. 2493—we find it quite clearly stated, as an expression of opinion and a recommendation by the Imperial Economic Committee itself, that home produce shall occupy the first position in the home market, that Dominion and Colonial produce shall occupy the second position, and that foreign produce shall occupy the third.
So far as the Dominions themselves are concerned, I may quote to your Lordships a statement that was made by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons on December 17, 1924. That statement is also printed on page 4 of the Paper to which I have just made reference. This is what the Prime Minister said—
The Dominions have always recognised that our home producers have, and always shall have, the first place in the home market, but they ask, and we think rightly ask, that they should have a preference over foreign countries as regards that part of the home market which cannot be supplied by the home producer.The Dominions themselves have repeatedly expressed their agreement in principle with this suggestion. Only quite recently I have seen that stated again.I think it is perfectly true to say that there is a very wide field for displacing foreign produce, without in any way hurting the home producer, in this country. If your Lordships will refer to page 5 of Command Paper No. 2493, you will find there set out a short table dealing with a few of the essential food products. In the first column you will find the percentage of that which is produced in this country, and in the second and third columns respectively you will find the percentage that is imported from within the Empire and from foreign countries. If you study that table you will see that there is a very great difference between that which is imported from Empire countries and that which is imported from foreign countries, and it 552 is a proportion of that which is imported from foreign countries which, it is thought, should be imported from Empire countries.
The Papers to which my noble friend has referred are the two Papers which have already been issued by the Imperial Economic Committee, and are numbered respectively 2493 and 2499. The first one deals with various articles of food and the second with the subject of meat. There is one which is still to be published, and that is a Report on the subject of the marketing of fruit. I am afraid I cannot give my noble friend any indication as to when that Report will be published. It has presented much greater difficulties than the other two, but it is hoped that it will be published at no very distant date. The Imperial Economic Committee were invited to make recommendations to the Home Government regarding schemes upon which useful expenditure might be incurred out of the grant which was proposed to be devoted by the Home Government to securing for producers in the overseas part of the Empire a larger share of that portion of the United Kingdom market for foodstuffs which has to be supplied by importation from abroad and the main recommendations of the Committee will be found in the Command Paper to which I have already referred, the number of which is 2493.
These recommendations have been receiving the most careful consideration of His Majesty's Government but, as the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs has stated in another place on more than one occasion, His Majesty's Government are not yet in a position to make any announcement, as certain details of the arrangements proposed are still under discussion and negotiation with the Dominions themselves. The Government hope, however, although it is impossible to say exactly when, to be in a position shortly to make an announcement. Until the views of the Dominions on this subject have been considered, it will, no doubt, be agreed by your Lordships that a detailed discussion of these proposals in your Lordships' House would be somewhat premature. I think I am right in saying that the noble Lord, in the earlier stages of his speech, asked that an opportunity should be given, when a decision has been come to, for debating these 553 recommendations of the Imperial Economic Committee. I think I have the authority of my noble friend the Leader of the House for saying that when the proper time conies an opportunity will be afforded to your Lordships to discuss in the fullest possible detail these recommendations which have been laid before the Government in this Report of the Imperial Economic Committee.
§ LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAMMy Lords, so far as I can understand, the Government has not yet made up its mind as to whether Or not it will accept the recommendations of the Committee set up to inquire into the matter, but that when it has made up its mind to take any decided step it will allow both Houses of Parliament to consider the matter. That, I think, is very satisfactory and I am glad that is going to be done, but I fail to see how the encouraging of the marketing of Colonial produce in this country call do anything but injure the farmer in this country in selling his own produce. If you are going to give an advantage to produce which competes with that which you want to sell it is certainty clear, I should have thought, that the English farmer will be damaged. As matters stand at present it is almost impossible to sell anything at a remunerative price, either corn or meat or anything else which the farmer produces.
If, that being so, out of the pocket of the taxpayers (of whom the farmer is one) you are going to give to a competitor, whether he happens to be a Colonial or a foreigner, something to enable him to market his produce better, the result must be detrimental to the home producer. So far as I can see, unless the Government turns down the proposal altogether and does not give any subsidies, the result must be that the farmer, who is a taxpayer, will, out of his own pocket, pay somebody else to destroy his (the farmer's) market, or rather to injure it. Personally, although I am a strong Protecticnist, I am against subsidies of any sort or kind, because I believe subsidies are the very worst form of Protection, and I must say I cannot see 554 why, if the Government has refused, as I think rightly refused, to give a subsidy to the English farmer, it should go out of its way to give a subsidy to another farmer, even though he may be a Colonial subject of His Majesty.
§ LORD STRACHIEMy Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Earl and to the Leader of the House for saying we shall have an opportunity for debate when the Government has made up its mind exactly what steps should be taken as regards a subsidy and the constitution of the people to administer it, but I cannot think that we have had an answer to the condemnation which I made of the proposal that the British taxpayer should have to pay in order to make it easier for the Colonial producer to compete in our markets. What I had hoped to hear was that the National Farmers' Union was mistaken and that the subsidy was only to apply in order to enable Dominion producers to compete with foreign produce which we could not produce. Then I should not have had a word to say. But the present position, I think, is that they will compete with everything produced in this country.
§ THE EARL OF CLARENDONNo, no.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThe whole object, of course, is to help the Colonial producer at the expense of the foreign producer. That is what the Government wish to do.
§ LORD STRACHIEThat is what they may wish to do, but the effect will be to prejudice the British producer. We know that the Colonies at the present moment give bounties, and now it is proposed that the Colonial producer shall be further assisted by a bounty to help him to market his produce here. However, after what has been said I do not wish to press my Motion, and I therefore ask leave to withdraw.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ House adjourned at twenty minutes before six o'clock.