MONEYLENDERS BILL. [H.L.]

HL Deb 26 November 1925 vol 62 cc935-53

Amendments reported (according to Order).

Clause 1:

Licences to be taken out by moneylenders.

1.—(1) Every moneylender shall take out annually in respect of every place in which he carries on his business an excise licence, and there shall be charged on every such licence an excise duty of fifteen pounds, or if the licence is taken out on or after the first day of July in any year, of ten pounds.

(2) A licence taken out under this section (in this Act referred to as "a moneylender's excise licence") shall expire on the thirty-first day of December in the year in which it is taken out.

(3) If any person—

1. (a) takes out an excise licence in any name other than his own name or, in case of a company or society, the name of the responsible manager for the time being; or

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in paragraph (a) of subsection (3), to omit all words from and including "company" and insert "firm the names of all the partners of the firm; or". The noble Lord said: My Lords, the object of the Amendment is to cover the case of partnership firms, which is not covered by the original clause, and the words relating to "company or society" in the original clause have been omitted as being already covered by "person." Under the clause as it now stands a corporate body will have to take out an excise licence in its own name.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 18, leave out from ("a") to the end of line 20, and insert ("firm the names of all the partners of the firm").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH

I beg to move, after subsection (3), to insert: "(4) Section twenty-five of the Excise Licences Act, 1825 (which relates to the posting on their premises of the names and other particulars of persons carrying on businesses for which excise licences are required) shall apply with respect to moneylenders' excise licences as if those licences were licences required by that Act, and to persons taking out such licences as if they were persons required by laws of excise to make entry of their premises in order to carry on their businesses therein."

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 19, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2:

Certificate required for grant of money lender's excise licence.

2.—(1) A moneylender's excise licence shall not be granted except to a person who holds a certificate granted in accordance with the provisions of this section authorising the grant of the licence to that person, and any moneylender's excise licence granted in contravention of this section shall be void.

(2) Certificates under this section (in this section referred to as "certificates") shall he granted—

1. (a) where the business of a moneylender is to be carried on at a place in the metropolitan police district, by a magistrate sitting in a police court in the metropolis having jurisdiction in that part of the district;
2. (b) where the business is to be carried on elsewhere, by the judges of the petty sessional courts.

(4) An application for a certificate shall not be refused except on the following grounds, or some one of them—

1. (i) that the applicant has failed to produce satisfactory evidence of good character;
2. (ii) that the applicant is by the order of a court disqualified for holding a certificate; or
3. (iii) that the applicant has within ten years been convicted of an offence under this Act or under the Moneylenders Acts, 1900 and 1911; or
4. (iv) that the applicant has not compiled with the provisions of any rules made under this Section with respect to applications for certificates.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved to omit paragraphs (a) and (b) from subsection (2), and insert "by the petty sessional court having jurisdiction in the place in which the moneylender's business is to be carried on."

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 30, leave out from ("granted") to the end of the subsection and insert ("by the petty sessional court having jurisdiction in the place in which the moneylender's business is to be carried on").—(Lord Desborough.)

LORD GORELL

My Lords, may we have some reason from the Government for moving this Amendment? There was a great deal of discussion in Committee as to paragraphs (a) and (b), which the noble Lord seeks to strike out, and I think we should have some explanation as to why this alteration is desired.

LORD DESBOROUGH

The object of the Amendment is, I understand, purely drafting.

LORD GORELL

With deference to the noble Lord, it scorns to me that, instead of having two alternatives, one in the Metropolitan area and the other for the country generally, under this Amendment there would be only one tribunal— namely, the petty sessional court. It is a point on which there was a great deal of discussion in the Committee, and if it is desired to strike out the Metropolitan jurisdiction I think we should hear from the Home Office the reasons why they wish to have the same jurisdiction all over the country.

LORD DESBOROUGH

My instructions from the Home Office are that this is a purely drafting Amendment. It covers under one phrase the petty sessional court, both Metropolitan and extra-Metropolitan.

LORD DARLING

My Lords, it seems to me that what is proposed by the Home Office is merely to keep under one division what has been put in the Bill under two divisions. Undoubtedly in the Bill a slip was made in describing the tribunals to which it was desired to give jurisdiction, because under paragraph (b) of subsection (2) of Clause 2 they say: "Where the business is to be carried on elsewhere, by the judges of petty sessional courts." There are no judges in petty sessional courts. They are justices, and it seems to me that what is meant by the Home Office—I do not doubt it is right—is that, whether it is a London Police Magistrate who is dealing with the matter or whether it is a justice of a county or of a borough outside the Metropolis, they are equally sitting at petty sessions. If that is the view of the Home Office I cannot say that they are wrong.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in subsection (4) (i), to leave out "applicant" and insert "person on whose behalf a certificate is sought." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this and subsequent Amendments are introduced so as to enable the magistrates to consider the character and past record of a company or partnership firm on whose behalf a certificate is sought.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 6, leave out ("applicant") and insert ("person on whose behalf a certificate is sought").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendments moved—

Page 3, line 8, leave out ("applicant") and insert ("person on whose behalf a certificate is sought")

Page 3, line 10, leave out ("applicant") and insert ("person on whose behalf a certificate is sought")

Page 3, line 13, leave out ("applicant") and insert ("person on whose behalf a certificate is sought").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved to add to subsection (4): "Where a certificate is sought on behalf of a body corporate, regard may for the purposes of this subsection be had to the character of the persons responsible for the management of that body." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this clause is introduced since the magistrate would otherwise have no opportunity of considering the character of the persons responsible for the management of a corporate body, the licence for which is taken out in the name of the corporate body itself.

Amendment moved— Page 3, after line 15, insert the said words.—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Prohibition of moneylending circulars &c.

4.—(1) No person shall—

1. (a) except in response to a written request, knowingly send or deliver or cause to be sent or delivered to any person a circular or other document inviting that person—
1. (i) to borrow money from a moneylender;
2. (ii) to enter into any transaction involving the borrowing of money from a moneylender;
3. (iii) to apply to any place with a view to obtaining information or advice as to borrowing any money from a moneylender; or
4. (b) insert or cause to be inserted in any newspaper or other printed paper issued periodically for public circulation an advertisement inviting any person to do any such thing as aforesaid:

Provided that nothing in the foregoing provision shall be taken to prohibit a moneylender from inserting in any newspaper or in any such paper as aforesaid an advertisement which contains, and which contains only, the following particulars, that is to say, his registered name and his registered address, a statement that he lends money with or without security and a statement of the date on which the business carried on by him was first established.

(3) Any person acting in breach of any of the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanour and shall in respect of each offence be liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds, or to both such imprisonment and fine, and, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds, or to both such imprisonment and fine. Where any person convicted of an offence under this section is a licensed moneylender, the court shall order that the fact of the conviction shall be endorsed upon the licence and the court may order that the name of the person shall be removed from the register of licensed moneylenders and that he shall be disqualified for being licensed and carrying on business as a moneylender for such period as may be specified in the order.

(4) Where it is shown that any moneylending transaction was brought about by conduct which constitutes a contravention of any of the provisions of this section such transaction shall he void.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, at the beginning of paragraph (a), to leave out "except in response to a written request" and to insert these words after "person." The noble Lord said: My Lords, these Amendments are introduced to clear up the ambiguity in the clause as originally drafted, and to make it clear that the request must come from the person to whom the circular or other document is sent.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 29, leave out ("except to response to a written request")

Page 4,line 31, after ("person") insert ("except in response to his written request").—(Lord Desborough.)

LORD RAGLAN

As this subsection was introduced on my Motion, I should like to say that I think the change proposed is a great improvement.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in the proviso to subsection (1), to leave out "his registered name and his registered address" and insert "the name under which and the place in respect of which he is licensed under this Act." The noble Lord said: My Lords, the words "registered name" and "registered address" in the clause as originally drafted referred, in error, to the system of registration under the existing law, which will be displaced by a system of licensing under the Bill.

Amendment moved— Page 3, lines 11 and 12, leave out ("his registered name and his registered address") and insert ("the name under which and the place in respect of which he is licensed under this Act").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved to omit from subsection (3) all words after "fine", where that word last occurs. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the provision which it is proposed to omit is unnecessary in view of the power of the Court to order suspension of a certificate on a conviction under the Act.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 34, leave out from the beginning a line 34 to the end of the subsection.—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in subsection (4), after "shall," to insert. "not-withstanding that the moneylender was duly licensed under this Act. "The noble Lord said: My Lords, these words are inserted to make it clear that the fact of being licensed as a moneylender does not exempt a person from the provisions of the clause, and it has the further advantage of making it clear that moneylending tranactions by an unlicensed moneylender are void. In view of various decisions of the Courts this point is tolerably clear, but the insertion of the words suggested put the point beyond doubt.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 2, after ("shall") insert ("notwithstanding that the moneylender was duly licensed under this Act").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6:

Restriction on rate of interest to be charged.

6.—(1) Where proceedings are taken by a moneylender for the recovery of any money lent after the commencement of this Act or for the enforcement of any agreement or security made or taken in respect of money lent either before or after the commencement of this Act, and the interest charged in respect of the sum actually lent exceeds the rate of four per centum per month, or the corresponding rate in respect of any other period, the court shall, unless the contrary is proved, presume that the interest charged is excessive and that the transaction is harsh and unconscionable within the meaning of subsection (1) of section one of the Moneylenders Act, 1900.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in subsection (1), after "taken," to insert "after the commencement of this Act." The noble Lord said: My Lords, these words are inserted to give the clause the effect it was obviously intended to have— namely, that the restriction on the rate of interest to be charged should apply only to transactions commenced after the coming into force of the Act.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 24 after ("taken") insert ("after the commencement of this Act").(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CARSON moved, after "lent," where that worn last occurs in subsection (1), to insert "or any part thereof remaining unpaid." The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this clause is the one which places a restriction on the rate of interest to be charged. It states that if the rate of interest charged in respect of the sum actually lent exceeds four per cent. per month, then the interest charged is to be held excessive, and the transaction is harsh and unconsionable and may be set aside by the Courts. It has been pointed out to me in numerous letters that this will not really confine the interest to the rate of four per cent. per month, though that itself is a very much higher rate of interest than I should allow if I had the power of carrying this Bill. In fact, in the Bill as I introduced it, I had inserted fifteen per cent. per annum, and threw the onus upon the moneylender, if he charged more, of showing that his charge was a fair and reasonable one. However, the Select Committee, who have taken a great deal of evidence on this subject, much of which I have read, have come to the conclusion—and no doubt there was a good deal of evidence to that effect— that a moneylender could not carry on his business at the rate of interest that I hail originally proposed.

For the moment, therefore, I am not quarrelling with the rate of four per cent. per month, but by this Amendment I want to make sure that the moneylender will really be confined to that rate, because it has been pointed out to me that the general practice among moneylenders is this. They lend, say, a sum of £100 at, let us say, four per cent. per month, or forty-eight per cent. per annum. They then say the total debt will be £148 for the year, and that must be paid off in twelve equal instalments. The fallacy of that is this, that if you pay off a month's instalment, calculated at the forty-eight per cent., you still go on paying the whole forty-eight per cent, on the whole original loan, and an accountant has very kindly made out a calculation for me (which, I am sorry to say, I have mislaid) to show that in that way moneylenders, in reality, manage to get something like eighty-two per cent. per annum, although it appears to be only four per cent. per month. In other words, they are really charging interest on money that has been paid off. It quite possible to argue on the Bill as it at present stands that the interest charged in respect of the sum actually lent exceeded the sum of four per cent. per month, but I do not think it is at all clear, and it is in order to make that clear that I move this Amendment.

I do not say the words of my Amendment are absolutely watertight, but I do provide an additional argument, if any such evasion of the Act is attempted, by inserting "or any part thereof remaining unpaid," showing that the rate of interest which applied to the slim that was originally actually lent shall equally apply to the sum that remains unpaid after any of these instalments have been paid. I want to make it quite clear that this particular device of the moneylender will not enable him to get out of the limitation fixed by the clause. If this Amendment is made, and it seems to me to be a reasonable one—though I have doubts of its entire efficacy; it will probably require further consideration— I do not intend to move the other Amendment standing in my name, because I am very anxious that the labours of this Committee, who have taken so much trouble in the matter, should not be thrown away. And, although I think the rate is a very high one, if I were absolutely assured that it could not be exceeded by any device of the moneylender, there are so many very valuable provisions in this Bill, particularly as regards advertising and bankruptcy, which seem to me to be very essential if there is to be any hold at all over these registered moneylenders, that I myself would make no difficulty as regards the rate of interest.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 27, after ("lent") insert ("or any part thereof remaining unpaid").—(Lord Carson.)

LORD DESBOROUGH

My Lords, I may say that the Home Office are perfectly willing to accept this Amendment.

LORD DANESFORT

My Lords, may I point out to my noble and learned friend that it should not only be impossible to charge interest upon any part of the sum which has been repaid but also to charge compound interest in other words interest upon interest. We know a method is sometimes adopted by moneylenders by which, to take an illustration, they advance £120 and immediately take back £20, or some other part of the £120, by way of interest; so that the sum really lent is £100. It has also been their practice to charge interest upon the whole £120 as though it was the actual sum that was lent. Perhaps my noble and learned friend could assure me that somewhere in the Bill there is a provision which will prevent the charging of compound interest.

LORD CARSON

If my noble friend will turn to subsection (3) of Clause 6, he will see that it says: "In no case shall compound interest be charged or allowed" As to whether that provision will prevent it I cannot give a positive assurance; but that is as much as we can do.

LORD DARLING

My Lords, it seems to me that the Amendment moved by my noble and learned friend is almost necessary. There was what looked to me to be a gap in the Bill which will be filled by the words he proposes, and therefore I should be glad to see the Amendment introduced into the Bill. With regard to the rate of interest he proposes to allow and the rates which the Committee thought should be allowed, I think we were satisfied—I speak in the presence of other members of the Committee—that the percentage charged by the money- lender and the interest received by him were not like a profit received in ordinary business. They were not profit, but the amount received out of which he had to cover all his working expenses. I think we were satisfied—I was—that to limit the interest as my noble friend proposes to-day would be practically to reduce the leading of money to the position of a business and that it could not be carried on at all. If we were to propose to stop the lending of money altogether it would he much simpler, though I suppose nobody would wish to make it illegal. I might say that in presiding over this Committee I did not regard myself as the advocate of any one scheme or another. I thought was there because I had once been a Judge and that I should keep up the character as well as I could.

LORD GORELL

My Lords, I should like to say from this side of the House that I entirely endorse what the noble and learned Lord has said as to the action of the Committee. I might amplify it in this way. We substituted a percentage per month for the ordinary percentage per annum, because the evidence before us showed that in the class of transactions with which moneylenders were principally concerned it was an extraordinarily difficult actuarial calculation, and in some cases an almost impossible one to compute the rate of interest per annum. They were short loans. Therefore, we changed the rate of interest per annum to a rate of interest per month.

I might further say with regard to the actual rate fixed, that all the evidence before the Committee was to the effect that this business could not be carried on at a lower rate, taking the rate as covering the gross profit, than 60 per cent. We cut it down to what we tinder-stood to be 48 per cent. because at the same time we had reduced the necessary expenses of the moneylender by cutting Out touting and advertisements. For the rest, in view of what both noble Lords have said, I think the insertion of the first Amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord would certainly carry out the wishes of the Committee, and if the second Amendment is not moved I think, so far as I can speak for the rest of the Committee, they are all in agreement on the subject.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I understand that the noble Lord does not move his next Amendment to leave out "four per centum per month" and insert "thirty per cent um per annum."

LORD CARSON

That is so.

Clause 10:

Proceedings in bankruptcy for moneylenders' loan not to be taken, except after application to court haring jurisdiction.

10.—(1) No proceedings in bankruptcy shall be commenced by a moneylender in respect of money lent by him after the passing of this Act unless the said moneylender has first applied to the court having jurisdiction for an order of payment of the debt due by such instalments as the court shall think fit, and default has been mule by the person against whom such order has been made in the payment of any instalment fixed by the order of the court.

(2) Where a debt due to a moneylender in respect of a loan made by bins includes interest or any pecuniary consideration in lieu of interest, that interest or consideration shall, for the purposes of the provisions of the Bankruptcy Act, 1914, relating to the presentation of a bankruptcy petition, voting at meetings, compositions and schemes of arrangement and dividend, be calculated at a rate not exceeding five per cent. per annum. but nothing in the foregoing provision shall prejudice the right of the creditor to receive out of the estate, after all the debts proved in the estate have been paid in full, my higher rate of interest to which he may be entitled.

The provisions of this subsection shall, in relation to such a debt as aforesaid, have effect in substitution for the provisions of subsection (1) of section sixty-six of the Bankruptcy Act, 1914.

(3) No proof of a debt due to a moneylender in respect of a loan made by him shall be admitted for any of the purposes of the Bankruptcy Act, 1914, unless the affidavit verifying the debt contains a statement showing in detail—

1. (a) the amount of the sums actually lent to the debtor and the amount of all payments on account of the loan made by him or on his behalf; and
2. (b) the amount of the balance remaining due to the moneylender.

For the purpose of ascertaining the amount of the balance aforesaid, interest in respect of the loan shall be calculated in accordance with the provisions of the last preceding subsection of this section, and appropriations shall be made to principal and interest in accordance with the rules contained in paragraphs (b) and (c) of subsection (2) of section sixty-six of the Bankruptcy Act, 1914.

LORD DESBOROUGH

My Lords, the first Amendment to this clause on the Paper is purely drafting and is to correct a clerical error.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 7, leave out the first ("of") and insert ("for").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in subsection (2), after "him," to insert "after the passing of this Act." The noble Lord said: My Lords, these words are inserted because it was not felt possible to restrict the interest allowed to a moneylender under bankruptcy proceedings in respect of loans made before the passing of the Act. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8 line 13, after ("him") insert ("after the passing of this Act").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "contains" and insert "is accompanied by." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is necessary because the affidavit referred to would not contain the statement required.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 31, leave out ("contains") and insert ("is accompanied by").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH

The next Amendment is purely drafting and I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 34, leave out ("all payments") and insert ("every payment").(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in paragraph (a) of subsection (3), after "behalf," to insert "and of the date on which such payment was made." The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name on the Paper.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 36, after ("behalf") insert ("and of the date on which each such payment is made").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH had two Amendments on the Paper to make the latter part of subsection (3) read as follows:— (b) the amount of the principal remaining due to the moneylender together with interest thereon calculated in accordance with the provisions of the last preceding subsection of this section.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, these Amendments are designed to make clear what is principal and what is interest in the balance remaining due. I beg to move.

Amendments moved— Page 8, line 37, leave out from the second ("the") to ("calculated") in line 41 and insert ("principal remaining due to the moneylender together with interest thereon"). Page 9, line 1, leave out from ("section") to the end of the subsection.—(Lord Desborough.)

LORD RAGLAN

My Lords, the Committee considered the propriety of inserting an Amendment to this effect and they came to the conclusion, I think, that it was unnecessary to do so. A moneylender lends a man £70 to be repaid in ten months by instalments of £10 each. Nothing is said about interest, or as to what is interest and what is capital. No doubt under a subsequent Amendment it is possible to calculate the amount of the sum outstanding. It does not seem to me that any object will be served by inserting the Amendments.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 11:

Restriction on loans to public officers.

11. No proceedings in bankruptcy or under the Debtors Act, 1869, shall be commenced or prosecuted in respect of money lent by a moneylender against any public officer holding a public office or employment, if the pay, salary or emolument of such person is forbidden by law to be assigned or to be taken in execution of any debt due by such person.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved to leave out "public officer holding a public office or employment," and insert "person on full pay or half pay in His Majesty's Naval, Military or Air Forces, or against any person employed by or under the Crown." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is suggested in the interests of clearness. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 13, leave out ("public officer holding a public office or employment") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Desborough.)

LORD CARSON

My Lords, I think the House ought to have some explanation as to why this alteration is made. If your Lordships will look at the Bill, you will find that it provides that "no proceedings in bankruptcy or under the Debtors' Act, 1869, shall be commenced or prosecuted in respect of money lent by a moneylender against any public officer holding a public office or employment, if the pay, salary or emolument of such persons is forbidden by law to be assigned or to be taken in execution of any debt due by such person." The object of the law, in protecting the salaries of officers in public employment, or a certain number of them, under a very large number of Acts, is that the public officer, carrying on the business of the country, gets his salary for his maintenance, and to keep himself in a condition to carry on the public business of the country, and no creditor ought therefore to be allowed to take any part of that salary or emolument in execution under a judgment, for the reason that if such an officer were deprived of his salary and his means of subsistence were taken away under a judgment the business of the country would be interrupted.

My noble friend, I understand, wants to limit that, and to say that, instead of "any public officer holding a public office or employment," the protection should be confined to persons on full pay or half pay in His Majesty's Naval, Military or Air Forces, or any person employed by or under the Crown. I do not know at the moment exactly which public officers would come within the definition of this clause as it is now proposed to be amended. There are certainly adequate reasons for protecting the persons who are mentioned in this Amendment from being made bankrupt, but every reason which supports protection being given to them is also, in my opinion, a reason for giving the same protection to every officer holding a public office or employment. The noble Lord may have very good reasons for moving this Amendment, which the Home Office may have sug- gested. It may be that there are no public officers except those who come within the limitation of the Amendment. I have not had an opportunity of looking into that, as I only got the Amendments since I gave up sitting judicially in the House to-day. I think it is a great pity, if Parliament has thought it necessary to protect all officers holding public office or employment so that their salary or emolument may not be seized under judgment, that the same protection for the same reason should not be given to them as is proposed to be given to the persons mentioned in the noble Lord's Amendment. For myself I would prefer the Bill as it has been sent up to us by the Select Committee.

LORD DESBOROUGH

My Lords, I understand that my noble and learned friend wishes to make the clause a good deal wider than those who are instructing me think desirable, and perhaps he will allow me to consult with the Home Office. In the meantime I will postpone my Amendment until the Third Reading. I am only too glad to meet my noble and learned friend in every way that is possible.

LORD DARLING

My Lords, it might perhaps assist your Lordships and the Home Office if I were to say at once that so far as I know the Committee did not desire to limit the protection from bankruptcy proceedings which is given to that class of persons who are already protected by law. We desired to give to those persons in public employment, whose salaries are at present protected, the same protection under this measure with respect to bankruptcy proceedings. I hope that when the noble Lord comes back to the consideration of this matter we shall hear from him that the Home Office agrees that those persons whose pay is already protected against ordinary action shall be protected against bankruptcy proceedings, and that officers employed under the Crown directly shall receive both protections.

LORD DESBOROUGH

I desire to withdraw my Amendment, and I will bring the matter forward again on Third Reading.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 12 [Restriction on proceedings by moneylenders for recovery of money lent]:

LORD DESBOROUGH

I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 9, leave out line 31 and insert ("a cause of action accrued").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 13:

Prohibition of assignment of debt due to moneylender.

13. Any assignment by a moneylender of debt due to him in respect of money lent by him or in respect of interest thereon, or the benefit of any agreement made or security taken in respect thereof, shall be void.

LORD DESBOROUGH

My Lords, I beg to move, after "assignment," to insert "not being an instrument made by a deed of arrangement to which the Deeds of Arrangement Act, 1914, applies, or to a trustee under or in pursuance of a composition or scheme of arrangement approved under Motion sixteen of the Bankruptcy Act, 1914, or to a trustee in bankruptcy."

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 12, after ("assignment") insert the said words.—(Lord Desborough.)

LORD GORELL

My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether this is a limitation of what has been sent up by the Committee, or what is the reason for it? I do not quite follow the purpose of the Amendment, and the noble Lord has not given your Lordships any help.

LORD DESBOROUGH

The Amendment was put down because, otherwise, it would not be possible for a moneylender to go through bankruptcy or similar proceedings.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, after Clause. 13, to insert the following new clause:

Calculation of interest where loan repayable by instalments.

. In calculating for the purposes of this Act the rate of interest on any loan in respect of which any instalment is agreed to be paid by the borrower, the amount of any instalment shall be appropriated to principal and interest in the proportion that the sum actually lent bears to the amount by which the total sum to be paid to the lender exceeds the sum actually lent.

In this section the expression "instalment" includes any bonus or other payment forming part of the consideration for a loan.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this new clause is designed to provide a method of ascertaining the rate of interest in any moneylending transaction, and, by including in instalments any bonus or other payment, it covers such cases as that in which the moneylender lends, say, £100 and immediately takes back £10 as a bonus.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 15, after Clause 13, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16:

Short title.

16. This Act may be cited as the Moneylenders Act, 1925, and shall be construed as one with the Moneylenders Act, 1900, and the Moneylenders Act, 1911, and those Acts and this Act may be cited together as the Moneylenders Acts, 1900 to 1925.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, at the end, to insert the following new subsections: (2) The enactments set out in the schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that schedule. (3) This Act shall not extend to Northern Ireland. (4) This Act shall come into force three months after the passing thereof.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the new subsection (2) provides for the repeal of enactments in the Schedule omitted from the original Bill by inadvertence, and the new subsection (3) provides that the Bill shall not extend to Northern Ireland, the matters dealt with by the Bill being now matters for domestic legislation in that country. Subsection (4) defers for three months the coming into force of the Bill, so as to give time for the setting up of the licensing machinery which will be required under Clause 1.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 20, at end insert the said new subsections.—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

The Schedule [Enactments Repealed]:

LORD DESBOROUGH

The Amendments to the Schedule are purely drafting.

Amendments moved—

Page 11, lines 10 and 11, leave out ("moneylender" to "or fails") and insert ("fails to register himself" to "address or")

Page 11, line 12, at end insert ("in paragraph (e) of section six the words "registration under")

Page 11, after line 13 insert ("1 & 2 Geo. 5. Moneylenders Act, 1911, subsection (1) of section two").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.