HL Deb 26 March 1924 vol 56 cc1084-92

Amendments reported (according to Order).

Clause 1:

Probation areas, committees and officers.

(3) Before making any order constituting a combined area, the Secretary of State shall give to the justices acting in and for any petty sessional division affected by the order an opportunity of making to him any representations which they may desire to make with respect to the order.

(4) There shall be a probation committee for every probation area which shall consist—

  1. (a) in the case of a probation area being a petty sessional division, of three or more justices appointed in the prescribed manner by the justices acting in and for that division; and
  2. (b) in the, case of a combined area, of such number of justices, being justices acting in and for one or other of the petty sessional divisions comprised in the area, as may be provided by the order constituting the combined area, appointed in the prescribed manner.

(5) The probation committee of every probation area shall pay to the probation officers appointed for the area and to any persons (not being probation officers) named in probation orders made by any court of summary jurisdiction acting for the area, or made by any court of assize or quarter sessions in respect of persons who have been committed for trial by examining justice acting for the area, such salaries or remuneration, and such sums on account of expenses incurred by those officers and persons in the performance of their duties as the Secretary of State may approve:

(7) The Secretary of State shall have power to make such arrangements as he thinks fit with a view to the provision of superannuation allowances or gratuities for probation officers.

THE EARL OF CLARENDON moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "Before making any order constituting a combined area the Secretary of State shall "and insert "A court of quarter sessions for a county may submit to the Secretary of State schemes with respect to the constitution of combined areas and of probation committees for such areas, and the Secretary of State shall take into consideration any such schemes which may be submitted to him and shall also, before making any order constituting a combined area."

The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is one which I understand the Government are pre pared to accept. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has very kindly given me an opportunity of discussing the Amendment with him, and has given me to understand that the Government are prepared to agree to it. But before formally moving it I think it would be only courteous to the House if I explained it in a few words. As your Lordships are probably aware, under Section 3. subsection (1), of the Probation of Offenders Act, 1907, the petty sessional court have the power of appointing these probation officers. Under the same Act, but under a different subsection of the same section, the standing joint committee of the county fixes the remuneration. Under this Bill in subsection 3 of Clause 1 power is given to the petty sessional court to fix the remuneration. So far as the county for which I speak is concerned, this change would not suit us at all. By leaving this provision in the Bill the result would be that probation officers would be appointed by the petty sessional court at unremunerative salaries, and therefore this most important work would be inefficiently performed. The present system, so far as the county for which I speak is concerned, has worked admirably. We have been enabled under the Probation of Offenders Act, 1907, to appoint whole time officers at remunerative salaries, with the result that the work has been most efficiently carried out. Under my Amendment I seek to give power to the quarter sessions to lay before the Secretary of State claims for his approval. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, lines 1 and 2, leave out (" Before making any order constituting a combined area the Secretary of State shall ") and insert the said new words.—(The Earl of Clarendon.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, this Amendment shows the advantage of having a sufficient time-between, the different stages of a Bill. The noble Earl has devised a most useful Amendment. The scheme of the Amendment is to authorise courts of quarter sessions to submit to the Secretary of State schemes with respect to the constitution of combined areas. There are certain cases in which probation work in a county is at the present time organised on a system of combined areas under arrangements made by quarter sessions, and it is thought that before making an Order under the Bill constituting a combined area, which possibly might not coincide with any of the areas in which the work is now organised, the court of quarter sessions should have the right of making suggestions to the Secretary of State and having his suggestions considered. We have looked into the. Amendment closely, and I have great pleasure in accepting it.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (4), paragraph (b), to leave out "acting in and for one or other of the petty sessional divisions comprised in the area," and to insert "representing the justices for the several petty sessional divisions comprised in the combined area and of such number of justices representing any court of quarter sessions in whose area any part of the combined area is situate." The noble and learned Viscount said My Lords, as the probation officers for the combined area would also supervise persons released on probation from quarter sessions it has been suggested that courts of quarter sessions ought properly to have the opportunity of nominating one or more of the members of the probation committee. This seems a very reasonable proposal and the object of this Amendment is to give effect to it.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 14, leave out from the first (" justices ") to (" as ") in line 16, and insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (5), to leave out "shall pay "and insert "may pay such sums in respect of any salaries or remuneration payable." The noble and learned Viscount said The purpose of this Amendment is to make it clear that the Bill will not interfere with the present system under which voluntary probation officers who receive no remuneration from local funds are employed exceptionally. Under the Bill, as drafted, every probation officer would have to be paid by the probation committee, but cases occur where a probation officer acts without receiving remuneration from the probation committee, and the Amendment is proposed to meet this contingency.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 20, leave out (" shall pay ") and insert (" may pay such sums in respect of any salaries or remuneration payable ").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendment in my name is purely consequential, and I beg to move it.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 26, leave out (" such salaries or remuneration").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (5), immediately after the proviso, to leave out "the Secretary of State may approve," and insert, "may be fixed by the committee with the approval of the Secretary of State and of the Treasury." The noble and learned Viscount said My Lords, this is, in part, a drafting Amendment consequential on the previous Amendment to line 20, the effect of both Amendments together being that for a direction that the probation committee shall pay such salaries as the Secretary of State may approve there will be substituted a power to the committee to pay such salaries as the committee may fix, with the approval of the Secretary of State and the Treasury. The Bill, as drafted, did not require the approval of the Treasury, and in this respect the Amendment makes a substantial alteration. It is in accordance with recent precedents that the approval of the Treasury should be required in such a case as this.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 29, leave out (" the Secretary of State may approve ") and insert (" may be fixed by the Committee with the approval of the Secretary of State and of the Treasury ").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (7), after "power," to insert "by scheme "; and at the end of subsection (7), to insert: Provided that the Secretary of State, before making any scheme under the foregoing provision, shall cause notice thereof to be given in such manner as he thinks fit to any local authorities who may be affected thereby, and shall take into consideration any representations with respect thereto which may be submitted to him by any such authority. The noble and learned Viscount said My Lords, these two Amendments are proposed in order to give local authorities who will be required to contribute towards the superannuation scheme an opportunity of making representations to the Secretary of State before the scheme is settled.

Amendments moved—

Page 3, line 8, after ("power") insert (" by scheme ")

Page 3, line 11, at end insert the said proviso.

—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 3 (Salaries and expenses):

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The Amendment to insert the word "remuneration" after "salaries" in subsection (1) is purely drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 20, after (" salaries ") insert ("remuneration").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to add the following subsection to Clause 3:— (4) If in any case the Secretary of State thinks fit to withhold the whole or any part of the grant which would otherwise have been payable under this section to a local authority in respect of any year, he may direct that the local authority shall be relieved of the liability to pay the whole or any part of the sums falling to be defrayed under this Part of this Act by the local authority in respect of that year. The noble and learned Viscount said My Lords, this is an Amendment in favour of local authorities. It is proposed by the Amendment that the Secretary of State, where he finds it necessary to withhold any part of the Government grant, shall also be able to relieve the local authorities of their liability to a similar extent. It is not anticipated that such a situation is likely to occur, but it seems right that the Bill should provide for the contingency.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 45, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6 (Power to make rules):

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The two Amendments to Clause 6 are purely drafting.

Amendments moved—

Page 5, line 36, leave out (" fixing scales of ") and insert (" regulating the ")

Page 5, line 39, leave out (" of the ") and insert (" for fixing scales of"). (The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 7:

Application of part 1 to London.

7.—(1) In the application of this Part of this Act to the metropolitan police court district—

  1. (a) The provisions with respect to the appointment of probation committees shall not have effect:
  2. (b) The power to appoint probation officers and other powers of probation committees shall he exercised by the Secretary of State:
  3. (c) The salaries, remuneration or other sums payable to probation officers or other persons and the superannuation allowance," and gratuities payable in the case of probation officers shall be paid out of the fund out of which the salaries of the clerks of the metropolitan police courts are defrayed:
  4. (d) Each division of the metropolitan police court district shall be deemed to be a petty sessional division.

(2) In the application of this Part of this Act to the City of London, the City shall ho deemed to be a petty sessional division.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "In the application of this Part of this Act to the Metropolitan police court district "and insert" The foregoing provisions of this Part of this Act shall in their application to the Metropolitan police district have effect subject to the following modifications." The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment, and the two following Amendments giving the modifications, are all drafting and are intended to improve the form of the clause.

Amendment moved— Page 6, leave out lines 6 and 7, and insert (" The foregoing provisions of this Part of this Act shall in their application to the metropolitan police district have effect subject to the following modifications ").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

As I have said, the next two Amendments are drafting.

Amendment moved—

Page 6, line 9, leave out ("have effect") and insert. ("apply in relation to the said district")

Page 6, line 11, after ("shall") insert ("in the case of the said district ").(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (1), to leave out paragraph (c) and insert: (c) There shall be paid out of the Metropolitan Police Fund any sums which the Secretary of State may direct to be paid in respect of any salaries, remuneration, or other sums payable to probation officers or other persons and of any superannuation, allowances or gratuities payable in the case of probation officers, and any sums which the Secretary of State may direct to be paid towards the expense of maintaining persons who have been released on probation under a condition as to residence. In this paragraph the expression ' probation officers ' means probation officers appointed by the Secretary of State, and the expression ' other persons ' means persons, not being probation officers, named in probation orders made by any court of summary jurisdiction sitting within the said district, or made by any court of assize or quarter sessions, in respect of persons who have been committed for trial by examining justices sitting within the said district.

The noble and learned Viscount said My Lords, this is in the main a drafting Amendment. It does not represent any change of intention since the paragraph at present in the Bill was drafted, but is merely designed to make clear what that intention is—namely, that the whole expenditure of the probation service as regards the Metropolitan police court district is to be paid out of the Metropolitan Police Fund in accordance with the directions of the Secretary of State. This is the position at present under the Probation of Offenders Act, 1907, and if this Amendment is passed it will also be possible to make contributions out of I he fund for the additional expenditure contemplated by the Bill—namely, for superannuation purposes and for maintaining probationers in homes.

Amendment moved— Page 6, lines 13 to 19, leave out paragraph (c) and insert the said new paragraph (c).—(The Lord Chancellor.)

LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM

May I, as a new member, ask for a little information Have we the power to direct that sums shall be paid by the Secretary of State out of the Metropolitan Police Fund which is contributed to by taxes?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The practice of this House is to put in provisions of this nature in order to make the Bill intelligible, but they are not intended to reach the House of Commons. When a Bill is read a third time there is a Motion made that Privilege Amendments be agreed to. They are put in italics, and the Bill goes to the House of Commons on the footing that these Amendments have never been made. The House of Commons sees them and knows what they mean.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendment is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 20, leave out (" metropolitan police court ") and insert (" said ").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to add to the clause the words "and shall be a probation area, and the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to the constitution of combined areas shall not apply ". The noble and learned Viscount said My Lords, this Amendment provides for the organisation of probation work in the City of London. The City of London has its own court and its own probation service, and has never been organised as part of the probation service of the Metropolitan police court district. The object of this Amendment is to make it clear that the provisions with respect to the formation of combined areas are not applicable to the City.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 25, after (" division ") insert (" and shall be a probation area, and the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to the constitution of combined areas shall not apply ").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8:

Interpretation of Part I.

8. In this Part of this Act:— The expression "local authority" in relation to any petty sessional division means the authority by which the salary of the clerk to the justices of the petty sessional division is paid: The expression "prescribed" means prescribed by rules made under this Part of this Act.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out "The expression ' local authority ' in relation to any petty sessional division means the authority by which the salary of the clerk to the justices of," and insert: "The expression ' local authority ' means the authority out of whose funds the salary of the clerk to the justices for." The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, it has been suggested that the Bill as drafted might raise some doubt whether the responsible local authority was the county council or the standing joint committee. By using the words "out of whose funds" it will become quite clear that the county council, and not the standing joint committee, is the authority

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 27, leave out from ("authority") to ("the") in line 30, and insert (" means the authority out of whose funds the salary of the clerk to the justices for ").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.