§ Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD METHUENMy Lords, I need take up but a very short space of your time in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. Sir Robert Baden-Powell asked me, at a moment's notice, to attend the First Reading, but I was unable to be here in time. Very much the same thing happened fourteen years ago. This Bill was kindly introduced by the Earl of Meath 598 in my absence. It was about fourteen years ago, just as I was thinking about going off to inspect a Yeomanry Regiment in Hampshire, that the Earl of Meath put into my hands a huge pile of papers and asked me to bring forward the next day the question of the training of cadets in schools. I succeeded in getting through my inspection and in returning in time to -bring forward the Earl of Meath's Amendment to that Bill. so that his action a day or two ago was tit for tat.
I remember quite well, after an inefficient speech of my own, that I produced as the principal witness on my clause the noble and learned Lord who was then Secretary of State for War, although, for reasons that I appreciated but regretted, he did not stand to his brief. I was succeeded by Earl Roberts and the Earl of Rosebery, each of whom made an admirable speech, and with the help of a somewhat confused speech by the Under-Secretary of State for War at that time, we carried the Amendment by, I think, about 130 to 30.
The remarks that I made at that time are exactly those I would make now. I considered, and I still consider, that it would be a very good thing if the whole of the youth of England had to go through a system of training. I think so because, in the first place, it teaches them discipline, and unless a boy or a man knows how to obey he is never likely to command well. Secondly, I think it would be an enormous asset to the physique of this nation. The physique of the nation is certainly not getting better; on the contrary, I imagine it is getting worse. In the third place, it will promote patriotism. With all the faults that the Germans may have, there is one fault they have not—they are not unpatriotic; they drill patriotism into all their youth. That is what is required, I contend, in England also.
I do not know what the experience of your Lordships has been, but my experience is that in the elementary schools manners are not very well taught, and I think it would be a good thing for all the youths of England if they learned manners, which belong to no particular class but are of value to any man, whether he be poor or rich. So far as the Scouts are concerned, there are now 350,000 in England and in the Dominions overseas, and they are shortly to be introduced into India. I had them in Malta; before I left I had 1,500 as smart lads as any one need wish 599 to see. To give your Lordships some idea of the confidence I had in them I may recall an occasion when, at ten minutes to twelve, the Lieutenant-Governor and the head of the police came to me to say that at twelve o'clock the police intended to strike, because they could get more money in the Air Force and also in the dockyards. I said: "Will you tell the police; from me that their names will be put up in the dockyard and also in the Air Force camp, and that 350 Boy Scouts will take their place?" There was no strike.
What I can best do now is to point out to your Lordships the reasons why I ask you for the protection proposed in the Bill. I cannot imagine that there will be any opposition. Every honest thinking person in England, if you get rid of politics, would, I believe, give me the same answer as that which Lord Kitehener gave to me when I intended to bring forward a Bill for the compulsory training of every boy from twelve years old. Instead of doing that, however, I had to go to Malta. Lord Kitehener said to me: "I never had faith in Lord Roberts's scheme, because I believe the only scheme that this country will accept will lie the one you want to bring forward, which is compulsory training of boys." If you were to obliterate all politics and get the Labour Party to look at it in a proper light, I believe there is no more difficulty in introducing compulsory training for boys than there was in introducing elementary education. One is just as valuable to the boy as is the other.
Having said so much, let me simply give to your Lordships the reasons why I say it is absolutely necessary that you should give the protection that is asked fur in this Bill. The Boy Scouts' movement is non-military. It has nothing whatever to do with politics. I never brought forward my training for boys as a soldier; I did so simply as an honest English citizen. From time to time unauthorised persons have used the name, uniform and badges of the boy scouts, thereby misleading the public and parents of the boys. Such imitation scouts, through' their practices, have brought discredit on the boy scouts, and through attaching the name boy scout to themselves, have obtained support, and patronage from the public. At the Imperial headquarters there is a long list of notable people who have given their patronage and have subsequently withdrawn it on learning 600 the facts. The desire of the Chief Scout and the Council is to protect the interests of the parents, and to ensure that anybody using the scout uniform and title is abona fide exponent of the ideals and training of the movement, and that its officers are essentially to be trusted in charge of boys.
At St. Albans, a man who posed as a scoutmaster collected funds for a scout ambulance contest. He was convicted. There was a man posing as a scout officer who collected funds on Hampstead Heath for St. Dunstan's Hospital. Street collecting by boy scouts is strictly forbidden. In 1917, two Sinn Feiners, disguised as boy scouts, were arrested for smuggling arms into Ireland, and while on coast watching duty, under Admiralty orders, patrols of boy scouts were visited by bogus scout officers wearing scout uniforms. A troop which had given considerable trouble, and had been disbanded by Imperial headquarters, approached a member of the Royal family, and obtained from him a challenge cup which was subsequently withdrawn on his Royal Highness's behalf. Records at Imperial headquarters show that a large number of men have obtained credit from firms and private individuals by improperly wearing scout uniforms. An organisation (not incorporated) calling itself the British Boy Scouts has been started, and trades under the name of the Boy Scouts' Association, with which it has no connection. A good many notable persons have informed the Chief Scout that they have been led to subscribe to the funds of this imitation organisation, under the impression conveyed to them that it was a genuine scout movement. Warnings in the Press against such imitators have been published from time to time by the Chief Scout. I think those instances are sufficient to support my case. All I have to say, in conclusion, is that I think the country can never be too thankful to Major-General Sir Robert Baden-Powell for having inaugurated this movement, so well organised, which has done so much in the interests of our country.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.— (Lord Methuen).
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH (THE EARL OF ONSLOW)My Lords, I rise with some diffidence to reply to the speech of the noble Lord who has moved the Second Reading of this Bill. I feel, no doubt with 601 all your Lordships, that anything we can do to further and assist so admirable a movement as that of the Boy Scouts, and to assist one who, like Sir Robert Baden-Powell, has created this movement, ought to be done, but there are points in this Bill which cause a certain amount of difficulty. The noble Lord referred to fraudulent collecting. I would point out that the existing law enables persons who make fraudulent use of titles and uniform to be dealt with, but the present Bill goes rather further, and makes it an offence to use a title or uniform, whether there is intention to defraud or not.
I may perhaps call particular attention to subsection (2) of Clause 2. That would enable the Boy Scouts to adopt a uniform which has hitherto been worn by another organisation, and render the use of that uniform by the originating body an offence. That, however, is a matter that might be met quite easily. The clause is rather widely drawn and would make it an offence for any small boy, who quite innocently called himself a boy scout and dressed himself up as a boy scout, to be taken up by the police and brought before a Court. A greater difficulty is that there are other organisations to which it would be difficult to refuse permission to wear a uniform if this permission were granted to the boy scouts. I do not want to throw too much cold water upon the Bill, and do not oppose it on Second Reading, but at the present moment I cannot promise that the Government will be able to give facilities for it in another place. I have just seen Sir Robert Baden-Powell, and I suggested to him that it might be of advantage; if he could consult with my right lion, friend at the Home Office with a view to seeing in what way he could best assist him.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLLMay I ask, as a Commissioner of the Boy Scouts, if what the noble Earl has said means that the Second Reading is to be allowed now?
THE DUKE OF ATHOLLI think the noble Earl has rather looked upon the Bill as giving privileges to the Boy Scouts, whereas it is really a Bill to protect the public. I do not think the Boy Scouts need any protection here or anywhere else.
§ On Question, Bill read 2ªand committed to a Committee of the Whole House.