§ LORD ASKWITH rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether any reliable information has been received and can be published as to the extent of the area and the approximate number of people affected by failure of crops and famine in Russia; whether cholera is known to have ensued; whether they are aware of any steps being taken for the consolidation of efforts to assist the people in the famine-stricken areas and the districts and States menaced by famine-stricken immigrants; and whether any measures are being considered or taken for the prevention of the spread of cholera to His Majesty's Dominions.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not know whether His Majesty's Government can give a reply to this Question, or whether they have the facts in 506 their possession. But, if they have any facts, I feel sure they would be very interesting to the country as a whole. One has seen the area over which this famine exists described as twenty-one Governments of Russia, and in another account as being in a comparatively narrow country. Again, as regards population, one has seen estimates that 30,000,000 people are dying of famine, while from other sources we are informed that the number is 9,000,000. People talk of millions very glibly. Few people would be aware that the war lasted less than two and a half million minutes. With that huge difference arises the question of whether, supposing that something can be done, the famine can he kept within hounds, or whether you are to have a vast number of the human race perishing and leaving huge tracts of country desolate,
§ Then there is the question of the consolidation of effort. This question has been discussed in Paris within the last two or three days. At the same time, proposals have been made by America, by the Red Cross Societies, and by His Holiness the Pope. And half-page advertisements about saving the children have begun again to appear in our own papers—all this without consolidation of any kind with any other particular agencies. People who know anything about famine must know the immense importance of the consclidation of effort in dealing with it. My noble friend, Lord Mac Donnell, probably knows from his experience in dealing with famine in India, how important are consolidated efforts.
§ I must also raise the question of cholera spreading from these people to those outside Russia—and perhaps one ought to add typhus to cholera. Every one knows that those diseases are spread not only by direct contact but also by what are called human carriers. Whether the States on the borders of Russia have sufficient medical comforts, disinfectants and doctors to prevent the breaking of the first line of defence by diseased persons and by carriers of disease I do not know, nor do I know whether it is possible that any assistance should be given those States. There is, however, the question of the steps that should be taken in our own country and elsewhere in His Majesty's Dominions to mitigate the chance of the people of this country, and possibly of India, running the risk of these dreadful diseases being brought 507 from the vast tracts of Russia where the population are said to be suffering from cholera and typhus. I beg to ask my Question.
§ LORD EMMOTTMy Lords, for a good many months during last year and this I was engaged in presiding over a Committee of Inquiry into the conditions of Russia. That brought me into touch with Russians in this country, with sonic of whom I have communicated quite recently with reference to this question of famine. If your Lordships will allow me I should like to make one or two observations in regard to one point raised by my noble friend, Lord Askwith—namely, the efforts to assist the people in the famine-stricken areas. After the discussion, reported in today's paper, which took place at the Supreme Council yesterday, there is no need for me to emphasise the urgency of the question. The Prime Minister of this country stated that it was important to consider measures of relief on the largest possible scale, not only for the sake of Russia, but for the sake of the world. I think everybody must agree with that proposition. Russia undoubtedly is face to face with a terrible catastrophe, and there must be reactions on Europe and on the world from the condition of things which exists in Russia to-day.
I have seen a report from the Volga area which states that in the Governments of Samara and Simbirsk, which are among the fertile districts of Russia, the deficit of cereals is tremendous, although as a rule, of course, those districts are part of the granary of Russia. Hay is almost nonexistent, and in many districts where there has been a little rain and sonic growth in consequence, the locusts have descended and eaten all the ears of corn and grass that were left. Grasses, whether they are edible or not, are being used for food by the population, and pies are being made of the leaves of linden trees and the supply of the leaves is growing short. Peasants are killing their cattle for meat, of which they eat some and sell the rest, and they are eating, and naturally must eat, the corn that should be reserved for the sowing of the next harvest. One important fact that appealed to me very much was that the Kirghiz, who are known, of course, as a pastoral people, are selling their cattle wholesale, and that the markets at Orenburg and in other districts of the Kirghiz 508 country are glutted with meat, so that these people must obviously be faced with absolute starvation in the future.
In the circumstances stated, a Russian Famine Relief Committee has been formed in Russia. It is composed of a minority of members of the present Government and a majority of social workers, university professors and writers enjoying respect throughout Russia, men of very varying political views, mostly, I imagine, very far removed from those held by the present Russian Government. I do not know whether I should weary your Lordships if I mentioned the names of one or two of these people of known moderate views. Kishkin was formerly a supporter of the Cadet Party, but has abandoned politics. He has a great reputation as a social worker, was a member of the Provisional Government, and is respected throughout Russia. Gorovin, who was formerly President of the Duma, is well-known throughout the country and is a man of repute. Kutler is a wealthy industrialist who supported the Cadets. The President, the Vice-President and the Secretary of the Academy of Sciences, the last-named being a former Minister of Education, all of them men of great scientific position, are members. Prokopovitch, a professor, a prominent supporter of the co-operative movement, and a former Minister of Trade and Industry, is also a member. There are several other members of the Co-operative Society besides a dozen or more professors and writers, some of great distinction, on the Committee.
Kishkin made a speech the other day at a meeting of the Russian Famine Relief Committee which is well worthy of study. In the course of that speech he said that events in Russia had created insurmountable barriers between citizens and cast them into irreconcilable camps, but he pleaded for unity and co-operation in the work of relief in regard to the famine. He stated also that the participation of representatives of the Government was essential to deal with the famine, as without the complex mechanism of State institutions the Committee would fail in its objects. That point was also very strongly emphasised by our Prime Minister in Paris yesterday, but Mr. Kishkin stipulated—and I think this point is of very great importance—for freedom of movement for this Russian Famine Relief Committee, for liberty of action and protection in any 509 activities they undertook, and for the immunity of all supplies and offerings destined for famine-stricken areas.
The Government representatives on this Committee are ten in number, with the addition of Kamenev and Rikov, who are appointed President and Vice-President respectively. They practically all belong to the moderate section of the Bolshevik party. Litvinov is one of them, but he has joined the moderates, and although unpleasant recollections hang about the name of Kamenev in this country he has always been a relatively moderate member of the Bolshevik party, and so has Rikov. Lunacharsky and Semashko, both Ministers, are also men of extremely moderate views who have shown great devotion to their departmental work ill Russia during the tenure of office of the present Government. Shliapnikov, one of the other members on the Russian Famine Relief Committee, is one of the few genuine working men in the Government, and he is also leader of the Workers' Opposition in the Communist Party. The presidium of this Russian Famine Relief Committee consists of seven people, two Communists and five non-Party men. Therefore, there is a large majority both on the committee itself and on the presidium, which corresponds to our small executive committee, of those who are non-Party men.
The Decree of the Government setting up this Russian Famine Relief Committee gives wide powers of action and all Government Departments are charged to assist the Committee in their work. The Committee is free from supervision by the Workers and Peasants Control, an organisation whose supervision is quite as formidable, and which has a. good deal wider powers, than the Treasury has in this country. This Committee has the control and distribution of its own funds, and it can start public works. In Russian papers issued at Riga it has been stated that a delegation is being sent over from this Committee to this country, consisting of Gorovin, Prokopovitch, Avsarkissov (a banker), and a lady named Kuskova, and also a daughter of the great Tolstoi. I do not know whether that is correct or not, but I hope, if such a delegation is being sent here, that His Majesty's Government will welcome them, because I think they will be able to throw a good deal of light on the situation.
510 Undoubtedly, this new Russian calamity needs our active assistance on the mere ground of humanity. All the support that the Government car give, and all that can be given voluntarily, will be needed, and even with all that the world can give the amount of misery and death in Russia during the next few months will be something terrible to contemplate. But in this—and here I come to a point of some importance—as in all Russian matters, it is not very easy and simple to see how it can best be done at the present time. Some people, of course, would say that we ought to make political conditions in regard to any relief that we give. The best information that I have been able to obtain from Russians is that it would not be wise so to do, and that no real good would be gained by it. Mr. Hoover naturally stipulated, on behalf of America, that American prisoners should be released before America gave assistance. But our prisoners were released a good many months ago. He further stipulated that relief should be in the hands of his own agents. Any country supplying relief will certainly need to feel assured that the relief goes to the famine areas, and is not diverted to other less deserving objects.
On the other hand—and here my noble friend, Lord MacDonnell, will know much more of this question than I do—the actual superintending and distribution of relief in a famine so widespread as this will need thousands of people speaking the Russian language. It is quite impossible for foreigners, I think, to send the enormous staff required to deal with the whole of the situation, and I am advised—and I put forward the suggestion for consideration by His Majesty's Government—that the Russian Famine Relief Committee is a body that may, on the whole, be trusted, so long as it retains its presentpersonnel, and its real freedom of action, as appears to be intended under the Decree that has been published. It would be far better than a purely Government organisation. Government organisations are apt to be too rigid and wooden in emergency, and I do not think that in any country in the world bureaucracy has gone so far as it has gone recently in Russia. I think that public confidence can be reposed in a Committee of which such men as Kishkin, Gorovin, and Prokopovitch are members, along with members of the Government working with them.
511 I suggest that there are two stipulations which it is reasonable to make. The first is that representatives of other countries—the countries who are giving assistance—should be on the Russian Famine Relief Committee, or at any rate in a position to know what is being done by that Committee. In the second place—and this is a matter regarding internal organisation in Russia—the co-operative organisation in Russia should be in the closest touch with the Russian Famine Relief Committee. The co-operative organisation in Russia was one of the greatest and most beneficent organisations that existed in the country in the old days. It extends to-day all over Russia, but the central body of this co-operative organisation, and some of the local bodies, are dominated at present by official representatives of the Government. I think it is necessary, if these co-operative associations are to do the work they can do that complete freedom in the election of representatives should be accorded to them, so that they may choose whomsoever they please to put at their head, instead of it being necessary that representatives of the Government should have control. I earnestly hope that freedom of election may, if possible, be stipulated for.
On the actual problem of relief the need, of course, is colossal, even if the money can be found—and an enormous amount of money is required, or goods, which really mean money. Transport presents immense difficulties. An American calculation of one pound of bread per head per day for 25,000,000 people would mean about 10,000 tons of wheat per day. That means about 1,400 wagons. I suppose it would mean 4,000,000 tons in a year. At two pounds a head—and that is not too much for people that have nothing else to eat—the amount would be doubled. The figures which I have seen recently show that the number of wagons available for all purposes in Russia, including fuel, was something like 13,000 in the latter part of last autumn, 9,000 in January, and 9,000 in June; but, besides these, there were 1,500 to 2,000 used for moving troops. For three months longer the waterways of Russia will be open, and would assist considerably, but it is calculated that 85 per cent. of the food required will have to go by rail. With management and organisation, and a curtailment of military movements, there seems some reason to suppose that something like a thousand, 512 or perhaps rather more, wagons a day can be spared for the purpose of supplying food to the famine-stricken districts. But even that must depend more or less on the amount of coal that can be obtained from the Donetz mines, which some months ago had decreased their production to about a fifth of what it was in 1907, and the production is still falling.
I maintain, however, vast though this problem is, that we are bound in duty to do our best on the mere ground of humanity, but also on the ground of our future relations with the Russian people. We really cannot, and ought not, to allow America to bring succour without doing our best also to give help, so far as we can In the background there is Germany, and in my opinion Germany must inevitably play a large part in the reconstruction of Russia, but unless we do our share Germany is there ready, as I happen to know, to exploit the situation to her advantage and to our discredit. On every ground, therefore—firstly, on the ground of humanity; secondly, as a world problem affecting the future of other nations and of ourselves; and, thirdly, from the narrower point of view of our own interests—I hope we shall do all we can, both by Government help and by voluntary agency, to bring such succour as we are able to the victims of this awful famine.
LORD MAC DONNELLMy Lords, at this late hour I hesitate to detain you, but as I have been referred to by name, perhaps you will allow me to say a few words. I do not think there is any Government in the world which is capable of coping with the calamity which threatens Eastern Europe, but if any Government or if any system is capable of coping with it, that system is the one which was elaborated in India during the years that I was there. The main object of the system is to preserve intact the framework of rural society so that when nature resumes her activities the people may be there to play their part.
In order to do that the Government of India have laid down the following programme—(1) Provision must be made in convenient localities for the employment of the working population; (2) provision of sufficient food, through private trade or through Government agencies, to be sold for a wage which is not higher than a 513 living wage; (3) provision for the people who are unable to work of gratuitous relief in their villages; (4) provision of temporary hospitals for the relief of the sick; (5) provision of a pure and unadulterated water supply. The last-named provision is the most important provision, for as cholera is a water-borne disease it immediately affects the progress of a famine.
The information which we have received in the newspapers to-day makes it perfectly clear that the calamity which is impending has already begun. Already the framework of rural society in Russia is dissolving. We bear of the wanderings of the inhabitants of large villages, and the slaughter of their cattle which can have no fodder. Nothing is more difficult in dealing with famine than reckoning with people who are wandering in large crowds, with their women and children, and such cattle as they can take with them. When that state of affairs arises the difficulty of dealing with it is enormous. Looking back upon my own experience in India, if I were face to face with such an emergency, the only method by which I would endeavour to deal with it would be to establish large famine camps on the great lines of migration, keeping the people there until measures were taken to bring them back to their villages, and then endeavouring to establish in those villages, or in the neighbourhood, the system of administration which the Government of India has already embodied in a Code.
That will be enormously expensive. Whether you can get in Russia the food necessary is a matter upon which I cannot speak. But so far as my own experience in India went, I found it infinitely better to rely upon private trade for the supply of food than to rely upon the efforts of Government. You may do much more than a hundred private traders, but you cannot do as much as all the private traders of the country. With regard to water supply, it is absolutely essential that sanitary officers should be attached to the large depots or camps in order to take possession of all the water supply in the neighbourhood and to keep it free from pollution.
I agree with what Lord Emmett has said, that there is an obligation upon us, not only from the point of view of humanity but from the point of view of high policy, to do what we can for the Russian people, 514 but I am more than doubtful whether anything sufficient can be obtained from private charity. I believe the proper thing to do would be that a Government grant should be given of £30,000,000 or £50,000,000 sterling. If that were done, then possibly a Committee such as the noble Lord has mentioned might assemble in London, and people who knew the locality might be able to elaborate a scheme which might be effective.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDMy Lords, I have listened with great attention and interest to what has fallen from the three Peers who have spoken. I am afraid that the official information at the disposal of the Government is rather meagre, but it is clear that Russia, which in a single year before the war was able not only to feed herself but also to export no less than 14,000,000 tons of cereals, is now in a position of the utmost danger.
From the reports which have reached his Majesty's Government it is clear that either a partial or actually a complete failure of crops has occurred in the whole of the middle and lower basin of the Volga. According to a circular issued by wireless by the Soviet Government to all Governments, a state of distress has been recognised in ten provinces—namely, Astrakhan, Tsaritsin, Saratov, Samara, Simbirsk, Tam Republic, Tehuvash territory, and certain districts in the Ufa and Viatka Provinces and in the Mairi territory. The term "Mairi" is defective in the wireless, but that is the nearest reading which can be given. It is said that severe and continuous drought in these provinces has either destroyed the harvest entirely, or will reduce the yield to only 10 or 15 per cent, of the average.
These provinces are inhabited by approximately 18,000,000 people, who will require a minimum of 41,000,000 poods in addition to food supplied from outside -to sustain the rural population on a basis of 50 per cent. of the usual ration, excluding cattle, and 18,000,000 poods to feed the urban population. In the absence of exactdatathe Soviet Government are at present unable to determine what proportion of the above-stated requirements can be furnished by Russia herself. The foregoing information is, I would emphasise, exclusively taken from the circular issued by the Soviet Government. No reliabledataon the subject have yet reached his 515 Majesty's Government, but Mr. Hodgson, the British official agent at Moscow, has been instructed to furnish a full report upon the subject. Reports of cholera outbreaks in certain parts of Russia were received as early as last year, and it is believed that a severe epidemic has broken out in the famine area. According to figures quoted in the Soviet Press, up to July, 27,000 cases have been reported.
The question of the steps to be taken for the consolidation of efforts to assist the people in the famine-stricken areas is now, as the noble Lord will be aware, being considered by the Allied Supreme Council in Paris. I am afraid, therefore, it is premature to make any statement at present upon the organisation of relief work outside Russia. Any such relief will undoubtedly have to include measures for the prevention of the spread of cholera and other infectious diseases, not only to His Majesty's Dominions, but especially to all countries which are in contact with Russia.
My noble friend, Lord Onslow, informs me that measures to deal with the possible importation of cholera are undertaken in this country in accordance with the International Sanitary Convention, 1912, under Regulations of the Ministry of Health, and are administered by port sanitary authorities and their medical officers. The Minister of Health has already called the attention of port medical officers of health to the possibility of the occurrence of ship-borne cholera at the present time, and any necessary action will be closely supervised by his medical staff. Information as to the prevalence and spread of cholera obtained by the Ministry is systematically communicated by cable to the Dominions, all of 516 which possess well-organised port sanitary services.
In addition to making an appeal to the Governments of the world, the Soviet Government have taken certain administrative steps to deal with the crisis, of which the principal is the formation of a Russian Famine Relief Committee, with full powers to collect and distribute all available supplies. A delegation from this Committee will shortly be sent to Europe, to open branches outside Russia.
§ align="center">[From Minutes of August 10.]