HL Deb 22 November 1920 vol 42 cc391-9

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Onslow.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[ The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair. ]

Clause 1:

Prohibition of employment of women and young persons in certain processes connected with lead manufacture.

1. It shall not be lawful for any person to employ any woman or young person in any of the following operations:—

  1. (a)Work at a furnace, where the reduction of zinc or lead ores is carried on:
  2. (b)The manipulation, treatment, or reduction of ashes containing lead, the desilvering of lead, or the melting of scrap lead or zinc:
  3. (c)The manufacture of solder or alloys containing more than ten per cent of lead
  4. (d)The manufacture of oxide, carbonate, sulphate, chromate or silicate of lead:
  5. (e)Mixing or pasting in connection with the manufacture or repair of electric accumulators:
  6. (f)The cleaning of workrooms where any of the processes afore said are carried on.

LORD ASKWITHmoved, in paragraph (a), after "reduction," to insert "or treatment." The noble Lord said: There are two processes in this manufacture, one of reducing and one of roasting. This is required in the roasting process.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 14, after ("reduction") insert ("or treatment").—(Lord Askwith.)

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

On behalf of the Government. I accept this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF ONSLOWmoved, in paragraph (d), after "manufacture of," to insert "any". The noble Lord said: Doubt has been raised whether carbonate of lead would be held to include white lead, which is a hydrated carbonate of lead and is not carbonate proper. The Amendment is moved to remove possible ambiguity.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 21, after ("of") insert ("any").—(The Earl of Onslow.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF ONSLOWmoved, in paragraph (d), after "chromate," to insert "acetate, nitrate." The noble Earl said:

This Amendment is moved as a result of a suggestion by the London Chamber of Commerce to the Home Office, and it is also proposed by my noble friend Lord Askwith on the ground that it would strengthen the Bill. This particular manufacture is a dangerous process, but it is understood that few women and young persons are employed in it. Nevertheless there are sonic possibly, and it is thought that the general prohibition should be applied here.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 21, after ("chromate") insert ("acetate, nitrate").—(The Earl of Onslow.)

LORD ASKWITH

I agree with the noble Earl, and have put down a similar Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2:

Regulations for employment of women and young persons in processes involving use of lead compounds.

2.—(1) It shall not be lawful for any person to employ in any process involving the use of lead compounds any woman of young person, unless the following regulations are complied with as respects all woman and young persons employed:—

  1. (a)Provision must be made for drawing away from the persons employed any lead dust or lead fume by means of an efficient exhaust draught so contrived as to operate on the dust or fume as nearly as may be at its point of origin:
  2. (b)The persons employed must undergo the prescribed medical examination at the prescribed intervals, and the prescribed record must be kept with respect to their health:
  3. (c)No food, drink, or tobacco shall be brought into or consumed in any room in which the process is carried on, and no person shall be allowed to remain in any such room during meal times:
  4. (d)Adequate protective clothing in a clean condition shall be provided by the employer and worn by the persons employed:
  5. (e)Suitable cloak rooms and mess rooms, and such washing accommodation as may be prescribed, shall be provided for the use of the persons employed:
  6. (f)The rooms in which the persons are employed, and all tools and apparatus used by them, shall be kept in a clean condition.

(2) It shall not be lawful for any person to employ in any process involving the use of lead compounds any woman or young person who has been suspended after medical examination from employment in any such process on the ground that continuance therein would involve special danger to health.

(3) A factory or workshop in which there is a contravention of this section shall be deemed not to be kept in conformity with the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901.

LORD ASKWITH had on the Paper an Amendment in subsection (1), after "any process involving the use of," to insert "soluble," and after "compounds" to insert "which are likely to produce lead fumes or dust."

The noble Lord said: The Amendment that I have placed on the Paper is covered now by the Government Amendment which comes later on. I am glad to see that the noble Earl has found, since the Second Reading, that the Bill requires some amendment. The difficulty I raised was that there was no indication that the Bill was confined to soluble lead compounds, and it would have brought in insoluble lead compounds where there is no danger but where dust is produced. The Amendment that I have on the Paper is intended to meet that difficulty, but the Government are proposing a definition of "lead compound" by which it is confined to soluble lead compounds, and I think with one consequential alteration the Government Amendment has now no objection from the point of view of those who desire soluble lead compounds alone to be dealt with. I suggest to the noble Earl that the Amendment might read "if the process is such that dust or fumes of a lead compound is produced," which would make it clear. In view of the fact that the noble Earl has added the splashing of lead, two small Amendments in the subsections will also be required. He can take the first part as it stands, if he will allow the words "dust or fumes of a lead compound" to take the place of the words "lead dust or lead fumes" in his Amendment. As far as I am concerned I shall then be satisfied.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW moved, in subsection (1), after "any woman or young person," to insert "if the process is such that lead dust or lead fume is produced therein or the persons employed there in are liable to be splashed with any lead compound in the course of their employment."

The noble Earl said: This Amendment and another to be moved later on are put down in order to meet certain objections which have been made by the London Chamber of Commerce. Those objections were that it is only soluble lead compounds which give rise to the danger of lead poisoning, and that insoluble lead compounds or mixtures of low solubility should be excepted from the operation of the clause. There are some substances used in manufacture which contain lead compounds but are used in such a way that no danger of lead poisoning arises. Any danger of lead poisoning arises from lead fumes or lead dust, and the clause which we suggest limits it to processes which are likely to produce lead fumes or lead dust. The noble Lord has suggested certain modifications in paragraph (a) and paragraph (e), and I shall be very glad to consider them before the Report stage.

LORD ASKWITH

I will forward to the noble Earl the suggestions I make owing to the introduction of the proposal as to lead splashes.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

The Amendment I ant moving is designed to meet the second of the two objections that have been made. The first one, that it is only soluble lead compounds which are included, comes under Clause 5. There is a second part to this Amendment dealing with persons employed and liable to be splashed. The medical adviser to the Home Office pointed out that danger is also caused through the workers being splashed with lead compounds, such as paint, which dry on their clothing and produce lead dust. This Amendment is designed to cover that danger.

LORD ASKWITH

I propose to add, in cases where splashing may occur but mess room accommodation, washing, and so on are not required, that the women or young persons engaged should not be liable to have those amenities provided for them. It would be ludicrous to suppose that a lad painting park palings or a ship would require suitable cloak room and mess room accommodation.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

If the noble Lord will let me have a note of what he is proposing, I shall be very glad to consider it.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 3, after ("person") insert ("if the process is such that lead dust or lead fume is produced there in or the persons employed there in are liable to be splashed with any lead compound in the course of their employment").—(The Earl of Onslow.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW moved to leave out subsection (3). The noble Earl said: This subsection is not required.

Amendment moved— Page 2, lines 32 to 34, leave out subsection (3).—(The Earl of Onslow.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW moved, after Clause 2, to insert the following new clause: 3.—(1) Where an inspector under the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, suspects that any substance used or intended for use in any process in which women or young persons are èmployed contains a lead compound he may at any time take for analysis sufficient samples of that substance. (2) If the occupier of the factory or workshop in which any such process is carried on refuses to allow an inspector to take samples in pursuance of this section or to give him facilities for the purpose, he shall be guilty of obstructing the inspector in the execution of his duties under the said Act. Provided that the occupier of a factory may, at the time when a sample is taken under this section and on providing the necessary appliances, require the inspector to divide the sample into two parts and to mark and seal and deliver to him one such part. (3)In this section the expression occupier of a factory or workshop includes any person employing a woman or young person in any process involving the use of lead compounds in any place other than a factory or workshop. (4)A certificate purporting to be a certificate by the Principal Chemist of the Government. Laboratory as to the result of an analysis of a sample under this section shall in any proceedings under this Act be evidence of the matters stated therein, unless either party requires the person by whom the analysis was made to be called as a witness.

The noble Earl said: This new clause is required to enable the factory inspectors to ascertain whether a substance which the women or young persons are handling comes within the scope of the Bill. Similar powers are given by the White Phosphorus Matches Prohibition Act, 1908, by the Home Office Regulations under the Factory Acts, by the Food and Drugs Act, and certain other statutes. Subsection (4) is based on similar provisions in the Food and Drugs Act. It makes the certificate of the principal chemist prima facieevidence of the results of an analysis.

Amendment moved— After Clause 2, insert the said new clause,—(The Earl of Onslow.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to

Clauses 3 and 4 agreed to.

Clause 5:

Interpretation.

5.In this Act— The expression "young person" means a person who is under the age of eighteen years: The expression "prescribed" means prescribed by order made by the Secretary of State, and the provisions of paragraph (a) of subsection (3) and subsections (4), (6), and 17) of section seven of the Police, Factories, & c. (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1916, shall apply with respect to orders made under this Act as they apply with respect to orders made under that section.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW moved, at the end of the clause, to insert— The expression 'lead compound' means any compound of lead, or any mixture containing any such compound, which would, if treated with dilute hydrochloric acid, yield in solution such an amount of lead compound as would, if converted into lead monoxide, exceed five per cent of the weight when dry of the amount of the compound or mixture so treated, but does not include an alloy containing lead. Tests for the purpose of ascertaining whether any compound or mixture is a lead compound within the meaning of this Act shall be made in such manner as the Secretary of State may prescribe.

The noble Earl said: I have already mentioned this Amendment under Clause 2. It is designed to meet objections taken to that Clause by the London Chamber of Commerce on the ground that the Bill would include insoluble compounds and mixtures, or compounds and mixtures of low solubility. In the Home Office Regulations made under the Factory Act for pottery and other lead industries exceptions are allowed in cases where the glazes or other materials used are insoluble compounds and mixtures or contain only a very small quantity of lead, for the reason that there is no appreciable danger of lead poisoning in processes in which those compounds are used. The matter was raised by the International Labour Conference; it was not intended by their recommendation to interfere with these exceptions, and this Amendment is proposed to make the position clear. It closely follows the definition of soluble lead compounds contained in the recommendation of the Washington Conference and also the definition of low solubility glazes which is contained in the Home Office Regulations for potteries. I may say that the definition of "lead compound" which appears in the Amendment has been approved by the principal Government chemist.

The test mentioned in the last paragraph for ascertaining whether the compound is soluble or not will be the same as that already in use under the Pottery Regulations. It is as follows— A weighed quantity of dried material is to be continuously shaken for one hour, at a common temperature, with 1,000 times its weight of an aqueous solution of hydrochloric acid containing 0.25 per cent. of hydrochloric acid. It is then allowed to stand for an hour and then passed through a filter. The lead salt contained in the clear filtrate is then precipated as lead sulphide and weighed as lead sulphate. That is the test which is now in use, and it is thought that as this is a purely technical matter the definition of the test should be left to be prescribed by Regulation by the Secretary of State.

Amendment moved— Clause 5, page 3, line 21, at end insert the said paragraphs.—(The Earl of Onslow.)

LORD ASKWITH

This seems to be a rather bad way of meeting the objection. The words in the proposed clause are "if treated with dilute hydrochloric acid." The meeting at Washington, after investigation by experts, and also by recommendation of the whole Conference did not agree to such a wide phrase as that. They used the words "if treated with a quarter of one per cent of dilute hydrochloric acid at common temperature." That is the definition that was agreed to at Washington, and was accepted by Belgium, France, and other countries. This is a test which would go to those other countries and would be a simple one to follow. I cannot say from technical knowledge what is the exact difference between the Government's suggestion and the suggestion made in my Amendment. I do not know whether the noble Earl would be willing that the exact test—the amount—should not be inserted in the Bill, that it should be left vague, and that there should be a reference to an Order by the Secretary of State. The words put in this wide form are certainly misleading, and I should have thought that the words of the Washington Conference might well be inserted for the guidance of other nations, as well as of our own.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

The noble Lord will perhaps confer with me with regard to this matter, and, in the light of the suggestion he has made, I will see whether it could be amended on the Report stage. Of course, I cannot give an undertaking.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.