SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND BILL. [H.L.] (Hansard, 22 November 1920)

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
My Lords, on the Motion of the noble Marquess, in order that the Government may not have the appearance of treating it with any incivility, I had better, I think, repeat to him what I attempted to say on the Second Reading and make such addition as the passage of time since that period renders proper. The Government was and is in favour of the proposal of the noble Marquess, and had hoped that it would have been possible to deal with the subject during the present autumn. The noble Marquess is aware that it has been pointed out to the advocates of the measure in another place that in the view of the Government the alteration of the status 389 and salary of the Secretary for Scotland is necessarily very much connected with questions which have arisen as to the relative salaries of other Ministers. Those matters are at present under investigation by a Committee of the House of Commons, and I imagine that the position of the Secretary for Scotland, though au individual question, as is recognised, is one which will engage attention. If the noble Marquess thinks it worth while in the existing circumstances to carry his Bill to the Third Reading stage he will of course do so, without the Government attempting to place any obstacle in his way. It is possible that he nay think it a convenient course to adopt, because the time consumed, in the absence of opposition, will be so very short. The noble Marquess probably knows that the Government has found is necessary to take all the time of the House of Commons until that Assembly rises, and therefore I fear this Bill cannot he expected to make much progress there.

THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW
My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to say a few words in answer to what has fallen from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. The treatment which this project has received at the hands of His Majesty's Government has caused the greatest disappointment in Scotland, and I think I can show in a few words that this is not to be wondered at. When I first brought the question before your Lordships' House in July the this year the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, expressing what I admit was a personal view, said he thought that this reform was called for, was overdue was legitimate and defensible. I was very much obliged to the noble and learned Lord for those encouraging words, and, argely on the strength of them, I went forward and was so fortunate as to persuade your Lordships to give a Second Reading to the Bill now before you.
On the Second Reading of the Bill Viscount Milner persuaded me to allow the Bill to lie on the Table. These were his words— In that case if, as we hope and believe, the Government are able to deal with the matter at a later stage of the session, I think you will all agree it would be the most convenient thing that it should be dealt with by a Government Bill originating in the House of Commons.…If, however, for any reason which I, do not anticipate, the Government were prevented from taking up 390 the matter at a later stage of the session, it would always be possible for the noble Lord, the Bill having been read a second time, to proceed with the further stages of in this House. These words were reinforced by the Prime Minister, who said that the Government recognised fully the justice of the demand unanimously put forward by Scottish Members that the status of the Secretary for Scotland should be raised to that of a Secretary of State.
I ventured, when first I drew your Lordships' attention to this subject, to point out that the entanglement of this project with the question of the salaries of certain English Departments had been its downfall in the past, and I then expressed the hope that this question, which after all to Scotsmen is a national one, of the raising of the status of the Secretary for Scotland to its ancient prestige was one which might at least be considered on its own merits. Now we in Scotland observe that this matter, in which w take so much interest, has again been bound up with this other question of the salaries of various. English Ministers, and in the terms of reference to the Select Committee which is to consider this subject of salaries there is not a word aboutstatus.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
The noble Marquess may assume that the question of status is now fully conceded.

THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW
I am much obliged for what the noble and learned Lord has said. We in Scotland, although patient, desire to see this matter put through.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
I am sure the noble Marquess stakes allowance for the difficulty in which the Government have found themselves. I can assure him that he has very few opponents in either House.

THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW
I am afraid that those who are left are sufficient to prevent the passage of this Bill immediately. I have spoken these few words—I dislike taking up your Lordships' time—only in order to inform your Lordships why I am asking you to pass this Bill through its successive stages.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE
My Lords, I hesitate to intervene in this subject, which I have no claim to touch, but I 391 desire to express a certain sympathy with the view so strongly held by the noble Marquess that it is very difficult to say that this particular proposition is in any way germane to the other proposition for raising the status and also the salaries of certain English Ministers or Ministers of the Crown not specially concerned with one part of the United Kingdom. I am not going to repeat what the noble Marquess has told us about the subject of the historical claim of the Scottish Secretary, but I confess that I think the noble Marquess has a right to ask that this question should be considered alone on its merits and apart from any desire to enhance the position and pay of certain other Ministers.
I shall merely make one reservation. I have no doubt that whenever the matter is raised in another place those who raise it will be told that all of us who are perpetually preaching economy and resenting extra expenditure are the last people who ought to come forward and ask for the raising of the salary of any Minister. That is a very easy, and I venture to think a somewhat cheap retort, but I should be quite willing to say in this particular instance that any increase in the salary of the principal Minister, the Secretary of State for Scotland as he would then be, ought to be compensated for by some reduction in other public expenditure. I can hardly believe that even in a country where economy is so judiciously studied as it is in Scotland there may not be some public services which might be reduced pari passu with this increase of salary. I utter this caution in order to anticipate what is the inevitable reply that will be made to my noble friend and to those who, like him, support the advancement of this particular Ministry.