HL Deb 06 March 1919 vol 33 cc555-69

LORD-RIBBLESDALE rose to call the attention of His Majesty's Government to the great number of over-loaded, over-aged, and under-fed horses now being worked in the streets of London.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, perhaps to begin with I had better say, for the convenience of the noble Earl who is to answer me, that I do not propose to go at length into the question and to trouble him about under-fed horses. I believe that the noble Earl replies for the Home Office, and of course the under-feeding of horses depends on the Forage Controller, and will not come in any way within the purview of the Home Office. I shall not, therefore, expect the noble Earl to say anything about that aspect. I believe that I am to have the honour of being replied to this evening by the Senior Steward of the Jockey Club, an important position in a horse-loving country like England, and one which I know my friend Lord Jersey has done a great deal to raise, if it could be possible, in the general estimation. I also feel that the high-mettled racer which is more or less under his charge is a very different animal from the poor helots whose cause I am pleading to-day.

In these days of motors the horses which have to conduct the heavy and light-wheeled traffic and transport of a great city like London are not popular. They represent, I think, what the psalmist described as "him that hath no helper." They obstruct traffic. If they are doing their best they have their noses nearly cut off by some Rolls-Royce motor, or some taxi, and altogether everybody is sick of everything but motor traffic, and very few care about the horse that drags the wheeled traffic. What is more, my unfortunate clients cannot look for help either to reconstruction, self-determination, a levy on capital, or even the League of Nations which is to put everything right for almost all people in all sorts of ways.

I should like to say to the House, and to my noble friend Lord Jersey, that I quite recognise the many difficulties under which the heavy wheeled traffic of London must have been carried on, and also that of all great cities—but I am speaking more particularly of London—during the four years of war. You have had practically the depletion of the general utility horse all over England, and I know that in my part of the country at the beginning of the war everything with four legs and a tail, however bad or however good, was bought at a very flattering price. I sold five myself that were worth very little money, but the buyers would have them. Then you have had the difficulties of feeding horses under the Food Controller. I think the Food Controller has done well, speaking from the point of view of hunting. I cannot speak with accuracy of the food which was given to the wheel traffic horse of London—to the jobmasters, and so on—but I believe the allowance was not bad. I think the difficulty was that, the price being very high, the carmen and owners did not buy the food to give to these horses. But so far as hunting was concerned we were given 10 lbs. of oats, and I think that was a fair allowance. Then there was the difficulty of labour. Heavy horses have to be groomed like other horses, but that was a difficulty inherent in the war. Further there were a great many incompetent drivers. But we are nor at war now, and I think something is due to the honest animals who have borne the brunt of over-loading and over-work and under-feeding for the last four years.

I heard with surprise the other day from some one who knew that it was seriously proposed that representations should be made by the Foreign Office to foreign Govermnents—our Allies I suppose, for I do not know that we are selling to people who are our enemies—as to the treatment that the horses were to receive when they were bought by the French or Belgian or Italian Governments. I really do not think Mr. Pecksniff could go much further than that. But I am also glad to hear that the Foreign Office would have nothing to do with anything so ridiculous, and that they gave our Allies the credit of assuming that they would treat the horses properly.

I do not want to labour at any length either the general or particular aspects of this question of the London streets, and I should think that most of your Lordships, unless you have been immured in the quiet contentment of your country homes, must have noticed that I am not overstating the case when I say that there are an immense number of horses of the kind that I have described in my Motion at present working in the London streets. What happens when suddenly there is an obstruction? A horse is not able to take his load. A crowd quickly collects. I generally look on myself, and I notice that the attitude of the crowd is quite enigmatical. People who come look on with curiosity, some smoke, and nothing is done, nothing is said, but the spirit of that crowd seems to be saturated by the spirit of a once popular song of 25 years ago, which ran in this way— Two jolly black eyes, Oh! what a surprise, Only for telling a man he was wrong, Two jolly black eyes. That is the general impression of people who look on at anything of this sort. At last, Heaven knows how, the obstruction is removed, the cart gets on somehow, and no more is heard of it. But, as I say, these cases are constantly occurring and nothing comes of them unless some one intervenes, when they are very likely to be had up for assault.

Now take the general case. I have had two lately before me. Two ladies, both perfectly well acquainted with horses, came across a wagon carrying 2½ tons of coals. One of the ladies I know quite well. She made her own inquiries and was able to judge of what she had seen. The wagon was stranded; it was not drawn by horses, but by two small pit ponies. The wagon had no brakes. At last after super-human exertions the pit ponies, which were quite willing, turned round down the hill on which the brakes did not act and the ponies could not keep the wagon back. There was a policeman there to whom appeal was made. The policeman did not appear to be unsympathetic, but he stood there and took the stoical attitude which I described of the larger crowd, and all he said was "He knew nothing about horses; it is very tiresome; these bad horses obstruct the traffic." But that is all he had to say about it. There again I suppose, somehow or other, the pit ponies got on or got home and nothing more was done about it.

This morning I was in the City, and in Queen-street, where Queen-street runs out of Cheapside over Southwark Bridge, I passed going up the hill a heavily loaded cart dragged by a pony of about thirteen hands. The pony was as game as a pebble and he was collared every yard of the road; but with that kind of pony put to that kind of work it is only a question of a few weeks and he is broken down. On this cart two great fat men were sitting who never offered to move or help him up the hill. I do not think that is right. But the difficulty is the same as that which, I am afraid, we are going to appreciate and discover as regards the German indemnities. What are we to do about it? I do not think that it is very easy to find a cure for this kind of thing. In four years of war people, like the owner of the pony in question, probably find that they can buy a worn out horse for £4 or £5, they can work him to death, and they can buy another; and that is beaten into the temperament of the people who are conducting the wheeled traffic of London. I have very little doubt about that. As for saving they cannot buy them now, they can buy them because the Government are selling lots of useful horses. I do not believe that any of those useful horses are at present finding their way on to the streets of London, for this reason—that the price of a good horse is high, and as these people have been able to get on by overworking over-aged horses and horses which no one wanted, they will go on doing that and putting the extra turn into their pockets.

As I say, I do not anticipate that we shall get very much out of His Majesty's Government about this, because I think the question is difficult. I remember bringing it before this House once before, and I was struck by the extraordinarily little sympathy which was exhibited by the House in anything of this kind. I remember when the Bishop of Hereford was much concerned about the gambling proclivities of those committed to his charge, he always used to appeal to this House as a House of sportsmen. No doubt that was a flattering compliment which we all rose to. I do not at all appeal to this House as a House of sportsmen; I do not appeal to it as a House of humanitarians; but I do appeal to it as a House of people who live a good deal in London, who are probably proud of London, and who are probably sorry to see the kind of thing which is going on in the streets of London, due to the causes I have set out in my Motion.

There are three ways, perhaps, of dealing with the matter. One was suggested to me just before I came into the House. It was that the drivers of traffic should be to some extent certificated so that you would be sure to have a good driver. Very often we see a heavy under-bred horse hugging the pole while a well-bred horse is killing himself and dragging the whole weight. I saw one the other day in those circumstances dragging a brewer's dray over Blackfriars-bridge, up that slope, and the driver was hitting the blood horse. He was a horse probably as purely bred as Eclipse. And speaking to Lord Jersey, whose family before him have done a great deal for the blood of this country, I would observe that it is a curious thing if you watch the traffic of London how blood comes out. You see heavy wagons drawn by the blood horse, whereas the underbred horse will not try and do it. This establishes the great value of English blood in horse-breeding. But that is not right. These horses are killed by the process, and we are having horses killed under our very eyes by over-working and over-loading, and no one taking the slightest interest in the matter or the slightest care over it.

I see great difficulties in the certification of drivers. I also see considerable difficulty in scheduling the gradients of London and providing horses to help the heavy traffic up them, because a great deal of this over-loading is due not to the very heavy traffic but to the medium traffic, and I do not see who would pay for the help horses. I believe there is a friendly society in regard to horses who do provide a certain number of horses for that particular work. If that could be done it would be a very good thing, but it raises the question of who is to do it and how it is to be done; and though, as I say, we live in the age of reconstruction the last thing that is likely to be reconstructed is anything of that sort. From what I know of my countrymen they will talk a great deal of their love for horses, but when it comes to doing anything they will do as little as any Latin race. The only thing I think might be done—and I would recommend it to the noble Earl who is to reply to me—is this, whether as representing the Home Office it would be possible to devise a means by which a little more supervision in particular places and all over the streets of London could be given under proper Home Office regulation.

I do not think I have overstated my case. This morning I had a long letter from a gentleman, a stranger to me, but who evidently knows his business. It is not worth while reading it to you, but he makes point after point, speaking as a technical man, very much better than I have been able to do. He writes from Wolverhampton—he is a traveller—saying how much he goes about all over England. He says that all his friends who come up to London notice these horses. It is not so bad in the great North country towns. I know Manchester; I know Leeds—you will not see this state of things there. It is London, the centre of this horse-loving country, where these unpleasant scenes and these unpleasant episodes are constantly happening, and where a person who tries to interfere or to help is looked upon as a curious animal, or, in the vernacular of the day, as being "up the pole."

LORD LAMBOURNE

My Lords, I should like to be allowed to say a few words in thanks to the noble Lord who has brought forward this Motion to-day, and I speak not only as one who has devoted many years and a great deal of time to this question of horses, but also as Vice-President of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. This question of the condition of horses in London is one that has occupied my Society for some time. I honestly confess that for the last six months certainly I have paid very close attention to the subject, and I do see a marked improvement in the condition of the horses of London. Not that it does not leave much to be desired. I confess that it does.

First of all, as regards the question of feeding, I do not see very many horses underfed. Take, for example, the railway horses which I happen to know better than any other class of horse, being connected with them to a certain extent. I have always taken particular notice of those horses. During the war they have had the same forage allowance as other horses, yet I do not remember ever having seen a case of an underfed railway horse about the streets of London. That was simply owing to the fact that the forage allowed was given to the animal at a certain time, and this I believe is at the bottom of the mischief of the under-fed over-driven horses in London at the present time. My society think—and I agree with them entirely—that there are three great faults, which are perfectly possible of correction. One is going too fast, the second is the load being too big, and the third is the greasy roads. The first two my society would like to deal with by licensing the drivers, and we are now promoting a Bill in Parliament in that connection.

I am quite aware, as Lord Ribblesdale said, that there are objections, but objections can be raised to any course. I am sure your Lordships are entirely in sympathy with anything affecting horses, and I believe you are ready to assist in passing any measure which you think will assist the society in bettering their conditions. Therefore our proposal at present is that the driver should be licensed. We think that this would certainly assist to a great extent because at the present time one sees young and inexperienced boys smoking cigarettes and not paying any attention to their horses. We have always found the crowd extremely sympathetic; and we have been endeavouring as a society to interest ladies as well as men in stopping any carter and asking the name of the driver; and we have given them badges to show that they belong to the Royal Society. I am also bound to say that have received every help and assistance from the Police. My society will be delighted to double the number of inspector if the funds are provided; and my knowledge of appeals to the public for dumb animals is so encouraging that I have every reason to believe that the public generally, your Lordships in particular, would assist the Royal Society in every way when they attempt to increase their inspection in regard to horses. I am of opinion that the licensing system is the best.

With regard to greasy roads, this is a great factor in causing strain upon horses. One can see horses coming up the hill by St. George's, or other hills, on wet days, when it is impossible for the animals to get a proper footing; and we have offered prizes, well worth the having, for the best system of shoeing which will enable a horse to get a proper grip on the roadway. I am sorry to say that up to the present time we have not found anything really suitable to recommend to the public in this direction. I am deeply grateful, as indeed is everybody connected with equine protection societies, certainly my society, to Lord Ribblesdale for bringing this question forward for your Lordships' consideration.

THE EARL OF JERSEY

My Lords, may I first of all thank the noble Lord who introduced this question for the kind references to myself with which he prefaced his remarks, and may I assure him—I am confident he will believe me—that I sympathise with the very humblest horse as much as I do with the thoroughbred racehorse. After all, all classes of horses do their work in their own sphere, and neither horse nor man can do more. The noble Lord will, perhaps, allow me to say that he has rendered a great service not only to humanity but to the reputation of this country—which has a tradition to maintain, as he truly pointed out, as a horse-loving nation—by introducing this question. He rightly told us that when we seek to instruct others in kindness to animals in general and to horses in particular we must be specially careful to cast the beam out of our own eyes before we look for the mote elesewhere; and he will believe me when I say that I am as anxious as he is to see the scandal to which he has referred remedied at the earliest possible moment.

I am not going to try to minimise or to explain away facts, the existence of which it would be idle to deny. There is no doubt that during the last two years the condition of horses in London has left much to be desired when compared with pre-war conditions. Before the war over-laden and under-fed horses were very rarely to be seen on our streets. The change may be largely attributed in the first place to war conditions, especially to the shortage of feeding-stuffs and the consequent need of the policy of rationing; in the second place, to the fact that many of the most skilled drivers were called away and their places taken by inexperienced drivers, sometimes even boys, who through ignorance or carelessness did not pay sufficient attention to the condition of the horses in their charge. A third cause was that many of the best horses were requisitioned by the Army and their places taken by animals either too old for the work required or in a very bad and inferior condition.

I observe that the noble Lord in his Notice refers to three distinct classes of horse—over-loaded, over-aged, and underfed. As he has said, the matter of feeding opens up the whole question of rationing. That does not come under the Department which I have the honour to represent in your Lordships' House, but I am not going to attempt any evasion on that score. I hope to show your Lordships that all Departments concerned recognise the necessity for securing proper treatment for our horses, and that they have endeavoured to co-operate in this matter. The noble Lord no doubt recognises that a certain measure of rationing was absolutely necessary for horses as for mankind—

LORD RIBBLESDALE

Hear, hear.

THE EARL OF JERSEY

And although all may not agree with the exact details of the policy, it is satisfactory to note that the restrictions on the use of cereals has recently been withdrawn. The notice, which appeared recently, read as follows— The Food Controller has revoked the Horse Rationing (No. 2) Order, 1918, which restricted the amount of cereals to be allowed to horses. The Board of Trade draw the attention of all horse-owners to the fact that the Horses Rationing Order (No. 2), 1918, restricting the amount of cereal food to be allowed to horses, has been revoked. The Hay and Straw Order (No. 4), 1918, however, which limits the amount of hay allowed to be fed to horses, and prohibits the feeding of long hay and the bedding of horses on oat straw, remains in operation and must still be strictly observed. It is something to have withdrawn the restriction on the use of oats: and, speaking for myself, I hope that the restriction on the use of long hay may be revoked at an early date, though I would call your Lordships' attention to the fact that I have no authority whatever to speak on that matter. There is no doubt that certain horse-keepers have taken advantage of the difficulties in obtaining sufficient food for their horses, and have paraded it in certain cases as an excuse for deliberately starving their animals; and I am sure that your Lordships will all agree that this is a state of affairs which certainly ought not to be allowed to continue.

I take it that the noble Lord would prefer that I should deal with this matter in a wider and more general sense. There are, as I think is generally admitted, three degrees of cruelty. There is, first of all, deliberate callousness; there is, secondly, thoughtlessness and ignorance; and there is again the class of man who honestly cannot afford to keep a good horse or to feed him properly. I think I should only be voicing the opinions of every member of your Lordships' House when I say that for the first class, that of deliberate callousness, no punishment can be too severe. I wish, and I have often wished, that very much more drastic measures could be adopted and much heavier penalties enforced in such cases. As for the second class, that of those who are ignorant or thoughtless, I think we shall probably agree that it would be very well that they should be made to realise that the infliction of needless suffering cannot any longer be tolerated. The third class to which I have referred, those who, very likely against their will, are compelled to under-feed their horses, is very difficult to deal with; but I am sure your Lordships will all agree that horses who have done their share at home during these trying years are entitled to the fullest protection and consideration that can possibly be shown them.

It may, perhaps, be convenient if I now read to your Lordships the instructions which have been issued on this matter by the various authorities during recent years. I hope thereby to show the noble Lord that, as I have already said, every Department has done its best, in so far as its powers lay, to enlist the sympathies and assistance of the public in this matter as well as to issue all adequate instructions to its own officials. In November, 1917, the Controller of Horse Transport issued a public notice drawing attention to the need for economy in the use of feeding-stuffs, and the, consequent need for easier working of horses. The notice was as follows:— The Controller of Horse Transport calls the attention of horse owners and horse users to the necessity for exercising a strict supervision over the manner in which their horses are worked at the present time. The amount of grain allowed by the Rationing Order, while it is the utmost that the available supplies will permit, is in many cases less than the normal quantities given to horses in the winter, and the quality is often not so good as at other times. It is therefore imperative that loads should be lightened as much as possible, and that, whenever circumstances permit, horses with heavy loads should be allowed to walk. Light horses drawing small vans and carts should be trotted only at a slow pace and never pressed. The Controller urges these suggestions upon the notice of horse owners, particularly as many horses are at present necessarily in the hands of inexperienced men and women. Attention to them is desirable, not only from a humanitarian but also from an economical point of view. The Home Office was asked to co-operate by bringing the matter to the notice of the Police. A circular was sent to the Police enclosing a copy of the Press notice— At the request of the Controller of Horse Transport, Board of Trade, I send you the accompanying copy of a notice issued by the Controller to the Press with regard to easier working of town horses. The Controller will be much obliged if the Police on street duty can be instructed to take such opportunities as present themselves to remind persons in charge of horses of the necessity for attention to this matter. It has also been pointed out that much waste of food takes place in the streets from careless adjustment of nose-bags, and this is also a matter which might have the attention of the Police as opportunity offers. In view of the prospective shortage of cereals it is important to avoid waste by all practical means. In March, 1918, the Home Secretary (Lord Cave) received a deputation on this subject from Members of Parliament who were anxious to effect an improvement in the deplorable state of so many horses at work in the streets of London. The Home Secretary expressed great sympathy with the views which had been put forward by members of the deputation, and said that he would do everything in his power to assist so far as Police action was concerned. The special attention of all ranks of the Metropolitan Police was again drawn to the matter by the Commissioner of Police, and a circular was sent out to provincial chief constables. The circular was as follows— 10th May, 1918. I am directed by the Secretary of State to say that the Director of Horse Transport has asked that the Police may again be reminded of the importance of checking the over-working of town horses. The issue of the Horses (Rationing) Order, 1918, reducing by 2 lbs. the maximum amount of cereal foodstuffs which may be fed per day to horses used in trade or business, renders it more than ever necessary that the work of such horses should be adjusted to the amount they are able to perform, and that over-loading and overdriving should be prevented. All possible measures should be taken to stop cruelty or overwork, and to prevent the wastage of horses; and the Police can render valuable assistance by warning horse owners and persons in charge of horses, and, when it becomes necessary, by instituting proceedings. I am to request that you will issue instructions to your force accordingly. In the Metropolitan area steps were taken to have special observation kept at a large number of points in order to discover any cases of cruelty. The matter is not a very easy one for the Police to deal with, as it is not possible to fix a standard load; for instance, a load which is reasonable on a fine day for a particular horse to draw on the level may be excessive a little later if rain has made the roads slippery and a gradient has to be surmounted; and it must be remembered that in order to prosecute in any case of cruelty the Police have to have sufficient evidence to sustain a charge under the Protection of Animals Act, 1911.

LORD LAMBOURNE

Was that circulated to other towns outside London?

THE EARL OF JERSEY

It was sent to provincial chief constables. With the best will in the world it is very difficult to ensure, in spite of the special instructions given to the Police, that a prosecution should follow in every case where it is warranted. It must be remembered also that the Police force is much depleted by war conditions; the number of officers on point duty and on beats who in normal circumstances would have been able to detect such offences is much smaller. It may, perhaps, be reassuring to the noble Lord if I give him the figures which I have just received, showing the results of the special observations as to cruelty to horses. On December 31, 1918, and also on January 2 and 4 of this year, as a result of the special observations on those three days, seventy-seven persons were convicted and twenty-three discharged, and one cautioned; so that action was taken in 101 cases.

LORD PHILLIMORE

In London?

THE EARL OF JERSEY

Those figures show that the Police are doing their best to deal with these cases. I gather that the noble Lord knows of cases where police-constables declined to intervene on the ground that it was outside their duty. I only wish that such cases would be reported, and I am sure the officers concerned would be given to understand in no unmistakable way that they had a very inadequate conception of what their duties really entailed. I am authorised to state that if the noble Lord has particulars of any cases in which he thinks police officers failed to act when circumstances justified their acting, and if he gives information privately to the Home Office, the Home Secretary will be glad to ask the Commissioner of Police to make a strict investigation. To some extent the public have the remedy in their own hands, and if they would only co-operate with the Police a good many cases which at present go undetected might be brought before the Courts. As we know, many persons are very reluctant to associate themselves with action in these cases. It may be that they do not wish to take the trouble to initiate proceedings, or wish to avoid publicity, which to a certain extent would be consequent upon their so doing. But I again say that the authorities would welcome any assistance which they may receive from the public in dealing with these cases. I am informed that there have been some cases in which Members of Parliament and others have with much public spirit taken the trouble to bring cases to the Courts, and there is no doubt that action of this kind produces a good effect and makes these people much more careful to observe the laws.

In conclusion, I may say that to my mind the difficulty of obtaining food should no longer be any excuse for starving horses, because, whatever the conditions may have been in 1917 and 1918, the special circumstances which I mentioned at the beginning of my observations have very largely disappeared. May I also assure the noble Lord that nothing would give me personally greater pleasure than to co-operate with him in this matter, and that if he cares to bring any cases to my notice I will see that they are transmitted to the proper authorities, and that, so far as lies in my power, I will use every endeavour to see that they are properly investigated.

LORD RIBBLESDALE

May I, with the indulgence of the House, say a word? First of all, I should like to thank the noble Earl for the most handsome way in which he has met my inquiries and for the promises he has made. I should like to make one comment with regard to what fell from the noble Lord just now. He seemed to think that stopping the carter would have a very good effect. A little time ago I followed a carter up to Marylebone Police-court. The carter was not actually ill-treating the horse. There is a great deal of difficulty in getting assistance in these cases. One does not find people inclined to go and give evidence. I followed up this case, and the carter was fined £1. But in this way you do not reach the man who overloaded the cart, the man to whom the horse belongs and to whom the cart belongs, and the man who is making money out of the load. What happens? The unfortunate carter is a man earning probably 25s. a week; he has a wife and children to keep. He is summoned, and the owner does not appear. The carter is fined, and the carting contractor pays the fine. That is all that happens.

You will never do anything by reaching the carters. I have not really much to say against the carters. I have seen ignorant driving, but I have not seen many bad cases from the carters. Those people who put the horses into the loads and insist on the carters carrying out the work are the people you have to reach. I am bound to say that I have seen a good many of the instructions to which the noble Earl referred given out from time to time, and on the figures he gave us I must agree that a great deal has been done. Otherwise, I should have said that these instructions were much more honoured in their breach than in their observance. As to Police intervention, when I saw this pony which was over-loaded going up Queen-street there were two magnificent specimens of the City Police standing at the bottom of the gradient. I will admit that they were at the bottom, and did not see where the little pony was stopped. They appeared to be talking over the weights of the Lincoln Handicap. I asked them if they had noticed it. "Oh! no." I said, "Have You no authority to notice these things?" "Ah well," one said, "it depends." So I said, "Well, I am going down to the House of Lords this evening and I am going to mention this case." He looked at me then with pity, and evidently thought I was a lunatic. As I was extremely angry I dare say that was justifiable.

I must say I have no doubt that the London police are good men in their own way, but, having followed this business for many years, I think they are no good on this particular job. I have never seen a policeman do anything in regard to the over-loaded wagon unless some passer-by takes the trouble to put his nose into the matter. I feel that the horses for which I am appealing have got a new lease of life and perhaps of happiness, now that the noble Earl has gone to the Home Office and has promised to interest himself in their cause; but I think really you will not do very much unless you put the London police—if they are the proper people to do it—under much stricter covenants of supervision than they have observed so far.

LORD RANKSBOROUGH

My Lords, if I may be allowed I should like to make one remark on the subject of nosebags, which affects the food. Horses can be very well fed out of nosebags only on one condition, and that is that when the horse ceases to eat the food in the nosebag that nosebag is removed. I perpetually see horses standing with their nosebags on, though they are not feeding. The horse breathes on the food, and after he has breathed on it the food is spoilt and he will not eat it. That is where food is wasted.