HL Deb 22 July 1919 vol 35 cc889-91

TREATY OF PEACE BILL.

ANGLO-FRENCH TREATY (DEFENCE OF FRANCE) Bill.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

My Lords, the House is aware that the two Treaty Bills passed through all their stages in the House of Commons yesterday—the Treaty of Peace Bill and the Anglo-French Treaty (Defence of France) Bill. The noble Earl the Leader of the House suggests that your Lordships should take these two Bills through all their stages on Thursday. He will present both Bills himself; and accordingly proposes to move, in respect of the two Bills, that Standing Order No. XXXIX should be suspended.

VISCOUNT HALDANE

My Lords, speaking for myself I should have thought what is proposed is reasonable, provided we can have a good discussion on the Second Reading. It need not take very long, but the matter is one of great importance. If that were done I should think there would be no desire to spend a great deal of time over the Committee Stage, the Report Stage, or Third Reading. The important thing is the principle, and that can be discussed on the Second Reading. Perhaps the noble Earl will be able to meet the House on that point.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I imagine that none of your Lordships would desire to put any obstacles in the way of urgent legislation of this description. On the contrary, we should all desire to co-operate in any way we could. But I hope when the noble Earl speaks again, or when he moves the suspension of the Standing Order, he will tell us why it is so necessary to rush these Bills through. I can see that it is an easy question to answer, because the House of Commons has been much impressed with them. No doubt there is a good reason.

VISCOUNT BRYCE

Does the noble Earl contemplate that the House would be pressed, in case the discussion should prove to be longer than he anticipates, against an adjournment. It is possible that the discussion may take a wide range and raise very important questions.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

Of course, that is quite possible, and I have no doubt that Lord Curzon is most anxious to meet that view. Indeed, can say offhand that Lord Curzon expects that some of your Lordships will make observations upon wide questions of principle involved in these two measures. He will, none the less, move to take powers to pass the two Bills through all their stages at the one sitting, and it is quite clear that if your Lordships find the time insufficient the Bills must be postponed. I hope, however, that that will not be the case. The Bills will, of course, take precedence.

VISCOUNT BRYCE

At what hour is it proposed that the House should meet?

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

At the usual hour of 4.15, on Thursday.

VISCOUNT BRYCE

Could we not meet a little earlier?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

May I answer that question? The House has already twice in the last week met at 3 o'clock, with the result that it has not been possible for your Lordships on the judicial side to sit at all after lunch, and at this period of the session it will be most unfortunate if that should occur again.

LORD BUCKMASTER

In arranging these times it appears to be overlooked that there is another tribunal of supreme importance which sits from day to day—namely, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council—which is struggling with a heavy list of work, and the curtailment of its time is a very serious thing. It is too often believed that it is merely this House whose convenience is to be considered, but I would beg the noble Earl—and I am sure I am urging my request upon an attentive ear—to bear in mind that some of the noble Lords who take part in our discussions are compelled by their duties to attend the Privy Council daily and for long hours.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

Speaking for myself, I confess that on these matters I am entirely in favour of the lawyers, not because I am a lawyer myself but because I have work to do in my own Department, and it is extremely difficult for those of us who have standing engagements, as I have every Thursday, to make our arrangements when we do not know at what hour the House is going to meet. I sympathise with what was said by the noble Lord about the Privy Council, and likewise with what was said by the Lord Chancellor about the judicial side of our business; and my own desire is that we should meet at the normal hour regularly and sit regularly after dinner. Lord Curzon, in making his Motion, will explain why he thinks it desirable that two Bills of this character should be passed without delay.