§ VISCOUNT BRYCE rose to ask His Majesty's Government if they can give the House some information as to the present condition of the Asiatic Provinces of the Ottoman Empire, and the measures taken by the Allied Governments for the protection of the unarmed Christian population in those provinces.
§ The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I have only a few remarks to make in introducing this subject, in order if possible to explain why it is not only important but, at this moment really very urgent. Your Lordships will remember that at the end of the Autumn, when the fortunes of war completely turned in our favour, an Armistice was concluded with the then Turkish Government by which the Turkish forces were to be disbanded, demobilised, and provision was made that in certain cases and conditions the territory of the Ottoman Empire might be occupied by Allied troops. That Armistice seems to have been concluded somewhat hastily, and, I think, without a complete comprehension of the conditions which were sure to follow on the demobilisation of the Turkish Army. We have heard very little since in regard to the interior of these Provinces. We know that British troops have now landed at the east end of the Black Sea and occupied the country along the railway front Batum to Tiflis, and from 255 Tiflis to the Caspian, and that order is being kept by a British detachment there. But in regard to the vast interior, which includes a great part of the regions which lie between the Black Sea and the Caucasan Provinces to the north, and Syria and the Levant on the south, we have hardly any information at all.
§ I find nothing in the daily Press, though I scan its columns with curiosity, and I find nothing from any other quarters which gives us any conception of what is really passing in those regions. Such scraps of information as come through tend to confirm what one would naturally expect, that the disbanded Turkish troops have scattered themselves over the country and wherever they have an opportunity the are perpetrating their old work of slaughter and robbery, and that the condition of the country is such as to put the unarmed population at the mercy not only of the robber tribes in the mountains but of these disbanded soldiers. That is a condition which, of course, involves considerable responsibility on the Allied forces. We very properly required the Turkish Army to be demobilised, but we ought to have made some provision then for the safety of the unarmed population, and this I am afraid has been made, so far, very imperfectly. That is the particular point to which I will direct the attention of His Majesty's Government, and on which I will beg them to supply us with some information.
§ May I point out three matters which render it urgent at the present moment that, if possible, due protection should be afforded to the peaceful inhabitants by the sending in of as many Allied troops as can possibly be spared to occupy the positions of most importance and to guard the lines of communication. I believe that a comparatively small force will be sufficient, and that if troops are sent to a few central points, to which the roads converge, the work can be done with a number of troops that can be spared from Syria. The reasons which make the matter urgent are these. In the first place, there is an immense mass of refugees—those who have remained from the great massacres of 1915 and 1916, who have taken refuge in neighbouring territories. Many have fled into the Russian territory of Transcaucasia, and many into Northern Syria and Macedonia, being under the charge of our forces and being fed and supported, so 256 far as we have means of supporting them. Some have taken refuge in Egypt, and are anxious to return to their homes. Others are to be found in Persia. None of these can return in safety to their homes and commence life anew until they are assured of some protection. Otherwise they will return to become the victims either of scattered Turkish bands or of such robber tribes as the Kurds.
§ The second reason is that during the great! massacres of 1915 an immense number of women and children were kidnapped by the Turks. Many were sold in public auction. Some were selected by the Turkish officers, and great numbers of boys were given to the Dervishes, who carried them off to put them in Moslem convents and make Mussulmans of them. From what I can learn it is still possible to rescue a good many of the women and children. Some, of course, can no longer be traced, but I believe that a number, which can be counted by thousands and probably by tens of thousands, can still be rescued if there is an Allied force upon the spot, which can give confidence to those who are able and willing to point out where they are. With a force sufficient to protect them they may be brought back to their parents and to their homes. This is a matter which, I am sure, will appeal to the human sympathy of everybody in this House. One can conceive no more hopeless lot than that of a child carried away from its parents, or of a daughter taken from her parents, or of a young wife taken from her husband and put in a Moslem harem to work as a slave for the rest of her life. If we can restore even a small number of these people to their liberty and to their relatives, we shall have done a work of mercy which we should rejoice to have an opportunity of doing.
§ Thirdly, there has been despatched quite recently from the United States a Relief Commission, which is carrying medical supplies, food, tools, implements of agricultural skill, mechanics, and everything needed to try to restore life and industry to these devastated regions. Millions of money are being expended by the charitable people of the United States in fitting out this relief expedition, and it is being carried in ships which the United States Government has put at the disposal of the Commission for the purpose. I had the pleasure of seeing the members of the Commission when they passed through this country 257 about a month ago. They were received with the greatest passible cordiality by His Majesty's Government, and they are [...]ceiving, I believe, from His Majesty's [...]ernment all the aid they can desire. [...]s relief is to be properly administered, [...]is to reach those for whom it is de- [...]ed, then clearly it is necessary that the [...]ds should be guarded and that the [...]faces where relief is to be distributed to [...]the miserable population should have [...]he protection of troops, who will see that the relief is not seized by robbers, disbanded soldiers, or the Kurds, but is given to those for whom it is intended. I need hardly say that it is being sent out for the benefit of Moslems as well as of Christians, and that there is to be no distinction of race or faith in the carrying out of this work of charity.
§ These are three reasons which seem to make it very important that our troops, and. Allied troops generally, if any can be spared by our Allies, should carry out, this occupation as soon as possible and restore security to the country. I may add another reason of a different nature. It was announced a fortnight ago by the noble Earl, in the debate upon the Address, that it had been agreed that Turkish rule over this region between the Black Sea and Syria shall for ever cease, and that this region shall no longer be exposed to the miseries from which it has hitherto suffered. The aim of the Conference, acting in consonance with the feelings, I have no doubt, of all who love freedom and peace everywhere, is that this region shall hereafter become the home of independent nations; but it is, of course, obvious that these nations and peoples, for whose independence we entertain hopes, are not at present capable of standing alone, of maintaining efficient government, of protecting themselves, of restoring industry, and of developing those self-governing institutions which we all desire them to possess. It is proposed, as I gather from the League of Nations scheme which was published a few days ago by the Paris Conference, to entrust some sort of protection or guidance of these peoples to one civilised Power, which is to act as the mandatory of the proposed League of Nations if it comes into being, and which is to have an oversight over the countries and endeavour to do for them what the diminution of population awl the exhaustion of the means of industry prevent them from doing for themselves.
258§ This opens up an extremely interesting question, but is may be proper to refrain from discussing it at this moment and speculating who the mandatory Power should be. I will venture to say only this, that the mandatory Power ought to be one which is quite impartial, which will do equal justice to all races and creeds, which will be free from any suspicion of having interests of its own, which will be free front jealousy on the part of other Western Powers, which will inspire confidence in the native peoples where it, will be placed, and which will also be unselfish. It must not aim at making any gains or special profits for its own citizens or subjects, but should administer the territories of which it has become the mandatory solely in the interests of the native populations themselves, with a view to the development, of their resources and to the restoration of peace, tranquility, and prosperity.
§ These matters, my Lords, are of very great significance for the future. It is quite natural that comparatively little attention should be paid to these remote regions by the peoples of Western Europe and of America who are absorbed in the consideration of other matters that seem to lie nearer to them, and about which they know more. We cannot expect that either here, or in France, or Italy, or America, people should be able to devote much of their time and thought to what is passing in the East when they are absorbed by the more immediately direct difficulties that arise as regards the making of peace, with Germany, the re-settlement of the parts of Europe where there are rival claims to territory, and above all the tremendous problem which is presented by the present condition of Russia.
§ These things are in the foreground, but, there is a background, and the phenomena of that background are of great significance, for the future liberation of the Eastern Christians and the re-settlement of those countries will hereafter be regarded as one of the most important results of the great war which we have brought to a conclusion. These regions—Asia Minor, Syria, Armenia, and Arabia—have been the homes of ancient civilisations; some of them enjoyed under the Governments which they lead a thousand or fifteen hundred years ago a real national life and prosperity, and bad a sense of their place and mission in the world which they have lost under the 259 desolating tyranny that has brooded over them for the last six centuries. We must desire that those countries which were the homes of ancient civilisations, and are still peopled by races which are capable of restoring prosperity and of building up a new civilisation upon the ruins of that which Turkish savegery destroyed, should be given the chance of a new life, and I hope we shall all feel that the sympathy, of the people of England, and the sympat by of the Western peoples generally, might to be extended, and will be extended, to the efforts which the ancient races are making to re-establish their national life, and that British influence will always be used on behalf of freedom and of peace. A great opportunity is offered to us, and it will be a misfortune if we lose it. We have it in our hands now to give what these peoples have desired for centuries past, and I earnestly trust that we shall be worthy of the power that has fallen to us.
THE LORD BISHOP OF BANGORMy Lords, I did not intend to take any part in this debate, but I should be sorry if no voice from this bench were raised to thank the noble Viscount for bringing forward this subject. One of my brethren had come down specially to speak upon it, but he unfortunately had to leave before the subject was reached. It is one of the matters which have caused great sorrow to those who sit on this Bench. If we look back on past years many of us feel ashamed that the sad lot of the Christians—the oldest in the history of Christianity—has not evoked more interest among our fellow-countrymen. Our fellow-countrymen, whose sympathies are so quickly aroused when they hear of a wrong and of maltreatment, have, it seemed to us, owing to our ancient alliance with the Turks, not always been in evidence when the sufferings of the Christians in Asia Minor have been brought to our notice. They seem not to have believed in them, and those of us who have followed the fortunes of those Christians and have known how very much they have had to bear, not during these few years but for generations, have been disappointed at the amount of sympathy which has been shown for them in this country. I am glad that the Americans are stirring themselves in this matter, because I think no nation has done so much for Christians in Asia Minor as the United States. Those who have travelled in those parts, which it was my 260 fortune to do many years ago, know the enormous work that was done by what are called American Missions in raising the standard of education and in their advocac[...] of justice for Christians. From my o[...] recollection for many years I think t[...] given freedom and the power to deve[...] themselves, those Christians would do [...]for they have in them the qualities than make a strong civilised people. Tha[...] they have not done so before is becaus[...] they have been so downtrodden. It would ill become me to suggest. what measures ought to be taken, but I hope that the Allies will take what steps they can to give these people that security for which they have so long pined.
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONMy Lords, throughout his long and eminent public career the noble Viscount who introduced this question has distinguished himself by his special interest in and sympathy with the countries and populations to which lie has referred, and to no noble Lord in this House, therefore, could it be a greater pleasure to me to give a full reply. I was glad also to listen to the observations of the right rev. Prelate who has just addressed us, and who spoke with a feeling that impressed us all, and which I have no doubt reflected adequately the views held by all his right rev. brethren.
I confess that I thought the right rev. Prelate was a little disposed to underrate the degree of sympathy that is excited in this country by the long-continued and almost historical sufferings of the populations to whom he referred. Surely it is the case, my Lords, that for fifty years at least the cruel and tragic sufferings of the Armenians in particular have never failed to find, not merely expressions of sympathy, but active assistance in this country. Those who have travelled in that part of the world always seem to me to come back inspired, not only with the romance of travel, but with a personal interest in the populations whom they have seen. And the cause of the peoples to whom the right rev Prelate has alluded, even though it may not be very well understood by the public at large for reasons which are obvious to all of us, has never failed to have behind it the very powerful support of public opinion which has stood up on their behalf.
The Question of the noble Viscount covers a very wide area. It embraces what 261 he describes as the Asiatic Provinces of the Ottoman Empire; that is not an inconsiderable portion of the world's surface, for it covers the whole area from the Indian Ocean on the south to the Black Sea on the north, and from the borders of Persia on the East to the Ægean Sea on the West. If I were to endeavour to answer his Question as it ought to be answered, I should have to deal with Arabia, Mesopotamia, Kurdistan, Syria, Palestine, Cilicia, Anatolia, and the remainder of Asia Minor; and your Lordships will see that unless I were to put a strain upon the attention of the House which would be inordinate I cannot, in answer to a Question, satisfactorily or in detail cover so large a field.
But the speech of the noble Viscount relieved me of a certain anxiety in this respect, because I could see that he was more concerned with what is passing in the areas over which the military and political influence of the Allied Powers has not extended or has only imperfectly extended, than he was with the areas which have been for some time under Allied occupation. As regards the latter, I need only say a sentence or two. They include, of course, the countries of Mesopotamia, of Syria, and Palestine. In Mesopotamia we have now been—and by "we" I mean in this case the British—securely established for over two years in the countries that lie between the mouth of the estuary of the Tigris and Euphrates up to a place called Erbil on the Tigris in the north and to a place beyond Ana on the Euphrates in the north-west. The advance that has been made in that time in the development of that country in respect of irrigation, agriculture, planting, the introduction of agricultural machinery, the education of the children, and in many other ways, has been amazing. More has been done in two years for those places than has been done in the five preceding centuries; and I cannot imagine a more proud experience for any Englishman than if he were now to go out to Mesopotamia and see what is being accomplished there.
And lest it be thought that I am unduly blowing the trumpet of my own race, I should like to read one sentence from a Report which reached me the other day from a very distinguished American who had recently, in the interest of relief, visited that part of the world. He said of Meso-potamia— 262
The work accomplished by the British since their occupation has been excellent in all respects. The populations are free and happy. Justice is administered, life and property are secure. There are no shadows in this picture.My Lords, that is a glowing, but not I believe an exaggerated, tribute. Somewhat similar conditions apply to Palestine and to Syria. In those parts of occupied Turkish territory similar progress has been effected. Roads have been made or remade, railways have been laid, wells have been dug or have been reopened. The people are paying without difficulty the light revenue which is exacted from them. The country is paying its way in that famous land. Even if it be not restored to what was alleged to be its pristine condition of a country flowing with milk and honey, it is already enjoying a degree of prosperity which under the Turkish rule it never did and never could enjoy.So much for the areas which are under the direct military occupation of the Allied forces. But the noble Viscount was really more concerned in the outlying portions of the Turkish Empire to which it has been and is so difficult to penetrate. He was alluding, I think, more particularly to Armenia, Cilicia, Anatolia—in fact, Asia Minor in general.
§ VISCOUNT BRYCEEspecially to Armenia, because there is very much less Christian population in Central Anatolia.
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONI think that is quite true. But in one sentence I must correct the noble Viscount, because he, no doubt unintentionally, somewhat misrepresented what I said the other day. What I said then was not that the Turk would be dispossessed of the whole of these areas in the future. There must obviously continue to be a home for the Turkish race. What I said was that the areas that have been taken from him and are occupied by the Allied Forces, and to which I have just specifically alluded, are not to be returned. I should not like the noble Viscount to think that I have said anything which would prejudge the decisions as to which the Peace Conference in Paris may ultimately come.
As regards the regions to which the noble Viscount referred, I think that the general description he gave of them is true. The conditions in that area are, I have no doubt, deplorable. The Com- 263 mittee of Union and Progress is still in existence; it still exercises the old authority with the old abuses; it still conceals from the people the reality of defeat, and acts as if it remained a conquering and predominant power. Simultaneously you have the difficulty, transient, I hope, but serious enough, to which the noble Viscount referred. You have these bands of demobilised soldiers, penniless themselves but armed—they are the only people who are armed—and therefore formidable, ravaging the country. No doubt in many parts a system of wholesale brigandage may be said to exist, and the fear of the inhabitants must be very great. These hardships are intensified by scarcity of provisions, by the poverty and badness of communications, and by the unhappy rigours of the climate. The present winter has been one of exceptional severity.
The noble Viscount then put the question, What are you doing, or what can you do, to relieve these conditions I think that he attached a little too much importance to the possibility of our being able to move there great bodies of troops. The fact that there are next to no roads, the fact that there are no supplies, the fact that so many important duties lie upon our troops elsewhere, are in themselves a sufficient reason why it has not been found possible to overspread this entire area with military forces. I doubt if this House has any idea of the number of British and Indian soldiers and all the paraphernalia of military campaigns at the present moment engaged either in the occupation or in the pacification of the territories belonging to the Turkish Empire. I should not be surprised if it was nearer a million than half a million; and vast as that number is, you must remember that to impose upon it fresh obligations is a very difficult task. You have growing up in this country a feeling that the soldiers must be got back. That feeling exists among the soldiers themselves; and ardent as are our sympathies with these people, if you were to call upon the Army in England, after what they regard as the conclusion of the war, to embark upon arduous, lengthy, costly campaigns in the heart of Asia Minor, I venture to think you would have a good deal of protest from the civilian population of this country. But that does not mean that we are doing nothing, or can do nothing, and within the limits of our possible action a good deal is being done. For instance, young British officers, many of them men of enthusiasm, courage, and experience, are 264 being sent out into these areas. They visit the towns and villages, and with that strange faculty that an Englishman has of seizing hold of the reins of administration and of exercising influence wherever he goes, they dominate the Turkish officials, they make them do what they like, they assume command, and presently order and some recovering degree of prosperity overspread the desolated land.
That is one thing that is being done. Another thing is that every possible encouragement, military, civil, financial, is being given to the operations of the various societies and bodies who are undertaking with so much generosity the came of relief. I have a word to say about that in a moment. Thirdly, the position which we occupy at Constantinople, the fact that war is not concluded with Turkey, that peace has not been signed, enables us to exercise a continuous pressure at the capital which, I can assure noble Lords, we have no reluctance to apply. And if your Lordships saw the correspondence that is constantly passing between the various Generals in the occupied areas—General Marshall in Mesopotamia, General Allenby in Palestine, General Milne in the Caucasus, and our High Commissioner at Constantinople—you would realise how much of their joint labours is devoted to the relief of the peoples of the regions referred to.
The noble Viscount specially referred to the Armenians and to those unhappy bands of Armenians who have been driven out of their country. The Armenians seem destined, or have hitherto been destined, to be the most persecuted and fugitive of the races of mankind—they have from time to time been driven from their homes, suffering the most cruel massacres, never quite realising where their national home or existence lay; and, although we hope that this war will be the final termination of those age-long sufferings, it remains the fact that the price that they will have had to pay for their ultimate deliverance has been heavy indeed. At the present moment we have in Syria and Palestine over 40,000 of these unhappy refugees; in Cilicia there are several thousand. They are all being eared for so far as we can. The British Armenian Fund has agents at Aleppo, Damascus, and elsewhere; the Armenian Red Cross Society is represented at Damascus, and in Cilicia there is a base from which British official assistance is given at Adana. In Mesopotamia there is a similar number 265 of fugitives—40,000 Armenians and Nestorians who have poured down from their ruined homes, in the hill country round Van and Urumieh, and who are being fed entirely at the British expense by our military authorities. In Mosul there are several thousands also in receipt of relief. In Transcaucasia, to which the Armenians have fled from what are commonly called the Armenian vilayets of the old Turkish Empire, there are about 45,000 in a similar condition. In other words, there is a total of something like 150,000 refugee and destitute Armenians who at the present moment are existing, being kept from utter starvation, by the efforts of this country.
No one took a greater interest in the fortunes and in the fate of these unfortunate people than the able and talented man whose death last week we all deplored—I mean Sir Mark Sykes. He was a man who not only had a knowledge of but a genuine passion for the East, and I ant certain, to those who knew and loved him, it will not be the least among the many pleasant recollections of his career that the last few months of his life before he came back from his last journey to the East to England were spent to a large extent in organising these efforts for the protection and relief of the unhappy peoples to whom I have referred.
What is the policy as regards these people? It was defined in correct terms by the noble Viscount. Our object is to repatriate them, to get them back to their country. But that cannot be done as long as the winter is what it is, and until the communications are somewhat improved. It would surely be no good to rescue these people from immediate starvation and send them back to starvation by slow degrees, even if it were in the country which they regard as their own. Step by step this repatriation will take place, and that is at the moment the policy and the only policy which we can satisfactorily pursue.
I have only one word to say in conclusion, and that is that I was glad to hear a tribute paid by both noble Lords who have spoken to the American share in this effort. What the noble Viscount said was perfectly true. He knows all the circumstances of this American mission under Dr. Barton, which has come from America with ships laden with stores—food, clothing, medicine, agricultural implements, and so on—that is making its way to the East. Its destination is the 266 Black Sea and the Ægean, and in different ports on those coasts, from whence it can without difficulty penetrate into the interior, it will start its efforts. That organisation has met with the most consistent and earnest support of His Majesty's Government, and not only have we facilitated its movements by every means in our power, but we are attaching to the various bands which it will send out British officers familar with the country who will accompany it and try to assist its work and alleviate the conditions with which, it will be called upon to deal.
The picture which I have been called upon to present to you is one in which there is, perhaps, more shade than there is light, but the light is increasing day by day. We have no reason to be dissatisfied with the part that we are playing in this work, and I think it is a great thing to reflect. that our officers, our soldiers, our civilians, our people of all sorts who are working in those countries, are not merely carrying on the necessary duty of military conquest and of recovery from the enemy of the lands they have misruled, but are engaged in the traditional British task of charity and mercy.
§ LORD LAMINGTONCould the noble Earl say whether the Committee of Union and Progress, which he says is still carrying on its authority in certain parts of Asia Minor, is doing so under the Turkish Govern, anent or entirely on its own?
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONIt is the Turkish Government.
§ LORD LAMINGTONCan the noble Earl particularise and say whether these officers and small detachments of our troops who are sent hither and thither have cone to Cilicia or Armenia itself?
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONThey go wherever they can; but naturally they must start from the areas where we are in military occupation. Some will start from Syria, Aleppo, and Cilicia, and move northwards; some will start from Transcaucasia and move westwards, from whatever base these parties are sent out.
§ LORD LAMINGTONCircassia was alluded to, though it is not mentioned in the Question. Can the noble Earl say whether we practically dominate over Circassia, or only certain parts such as Baku and Batum?
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONThat does not arise out of the Question.