§ LORD HARRIS rose to call attention to the proposed retention of certain Territorial units in the East over the approaching hot weather, and to ask whether this is unavoidable.
88The noble Lord saidMy Lords, I desire to call attention to the case of certain Territorial units now in India, who apparently, from the communiqué that we saw in the papers some ten days or a fortnight ago, it is contemplated should remain there for another hot weather. I am referring to Territorial units who were in the First Line—that is to say, who promptly volunteered in 1914 for foreign service. They are men who showed their patriotism and their recognition that it is the duty of every man to be prepared to defend his country in arms by service before the war, and who on the invitation to take up Imperial service in foreign parts promptly responded by volunteering and were therefore put into the First Line. A certain number of these units were sent to France, and therefore they are entitled to the Mons medal even before it was extended to 1915. Some were sent to Egypt, some did not leave England till 1916, and thus have not got any special decoration. But those to whom I particularly refer were sent to India, I think in October, 1914, and incautiously, unfortunately, they were assured, I believe on very good authority, that not many months would elapse before they were brought further West. That has not eventuated, and those battalions are still there.
As your Lordships remember, the Territorial Force before the war was not viewed in some quarters with great favour. They were not supposed to be very reliable. I think, however, that we may take the assurance of Lord French, who has publicly acknowledged that those First Line Territorial units whom he had under him saved the situation so far as France is concerned. And I take it that there is very little distinction as regards efficiency—there is certainly none as regards patriotism—between those various units who undertook imperial service. They went to India, and there they have been for more than four years. Apparently it was intended by the communiqué to which I refer to keep these units there for another hot weather. I submit that that is a serious hardship upon these officers and men who behaved so gallantly and so patriotically at the early stages of the war, and before the war. I hope that a more sympathetic view may be taken, and that some arrangements may be made to relieve them before the hot weather comes on. Some of them have seen service. I can only speak of those with whom I am best acquainted. The 89 Buff units saw service near the barren rocks of Aden. Others took part in an action So violent as that of the defence of Kut, with the result. that nearly the whole Weald of Kent was in mourning. So they have done their service out there. Others, I dare say, have had no chance as units of serving on a field of battle. They may have sent drafts, and I believe at this moment two of those units are serving in Siberia. I do not know that the sympathy for which I ask can be extended to all the units, because I take it they have been filled up from time to time by drafts, and the men of those drafts may not have the same claim to consideration as the old Territorials of 1914 who went out with the First Line units in that year. They may not have been all Territorials, and their service may have been very much less than that of the men of those units who went out in 1914.
What I am asking is whether it would not be possible in the case of the officers and men of the units which went to India in 1914, and who are there still, to send reliefs. We are late in the troop season, I admit; still, I do not think that the climate of India now is too severe for drafts to arrive. These men deserve special consideration from the State, having regard to what they undertook before the war, and what they undertook immediately war broke out. Can they not be given special consideration, and may not relief be afforded in order that they may be sent home before the hot weather?
§ THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT PEEL)My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that this question of the relief of the Territorials in India is a matter which has been very carefully and sympathetically considered by the Army Council even among all the very pressing and urgent problems which are now engaging their attention. My noble friend realises, of course, the absolute necessity of maintaining our garrisons in India, and he is also familiar with the difficulties of moving troops to and fro from India during the hot weather. Assuming, therefore—and of course we must assume it—that our garrison cannot be reduced in India beyond a certain point, the question is, Who will replace, or who can replace, those Territorial units, or the men belonging to those Territorial units (for, as my noble friend very justly says, they have been reinforced by drafts and 90 from sources other than Territorial) if those units are moved from India at the present time?
I will deal very briefly, at the desire of my noble friend, with the sources from which those units can be replaced. The only source from which they can be replaced, in the main, is the new after-the-war Provisional Army. There is a certain number of men left from the old Army with more than two years' service. Certain elements from among them, as individuals possibly, or as drafts, could go to replace those Territorials. But as all those men are entitled to two or three months' furlough before they serve in the New Army it is quite obvious, I think, that the date for their organisation and readiness to start front this country would be too late for them to undertake that voyage and to replace Territorial units in India. There are other difficulties of a technical nature connected with the rank of those men and other matters which I need not go into in detail, though they reinforce the difficulty.
Then there are the other men who are enlisting from the existing Army for two, three, or four years—which is the other element in the after-the-war Provisional Army. These men have also the same advantages as the men I have just referred to—that is to say, they are entitled to their leave for the New Army, according as they, enlist for two, three, or four years. Again, it would be impossible to organise these men and to send them out to India while the weather still makes it possible for us to do so. Then we come to the Armies in Egypt, Palestine, and Salonika. After going into that question very carefully it is found that the men who will be left after the pre-1916 men have been demobilised will be such a small, or comparatively small, number that they will only be sufficient to provide the necessary garrisons of occupation in Palestine, Egypt, Salonika, and other, places in the Near East, during the Armistice and until Peace is signed. Those are really the only sources from which troops could be obtained to replace these Territorials, and therefore I am afraid it is not a. question of our desire—it is a question really of the impossibility of sending reliefs, before the autumn season comes on, for these Territorials for whom my noble friend pleads.
I should like to set before my noble friend what can be done, and is being done, 91 to diminish the number of these Territorials in India. The present strength of the British troops of the Army in India is roughly 85,000 men, including Regulars, Territorials, and New Army. Of that force about 33,000 are Territorials. An arrangement has been made to withdraw from that force some 20,000 unfit men. They will be drawn, of course, from all the British units in India, and then, in connection with another arrangement, a further 5,000 will be withdrawn. These reductions will leave the number of Territorials in India at something between 23,000 and 25,000 men—a considerable reduction, as my noble friend, I think, will admit.
But there are other schemes now being considered for a further reduction. if those schemes mature it will be possible to reduce the number of Territorials in India to 20,000 men. Moreover, as regards these new dispersal drafts, if this scheme comes into effect instructions will be given that they should be composed as far as possible of Territorials. My noble friend alluded also to the Territorial regiments in Mesopotamia, and he cited, I think, one special regiment which had done very good service in Mesopotamia. I hope my noble friend realises that these Territorial units that are in Mesopotamia, being ex hypothesi units that joined before 1916, will be demobilised and will come back to this country because they are not required for garrison there. So that what I am saying applies to Territorials in India, while the units In Mesopotamia will be demobilised.
I think I have stated already to my noble friend that he must not go altogether by the number of Territorial units in India, because there have been drafts made to those units which are composed of other than Territorial forces, and therefore you must not merely multiply the number of the Territorial units by the strengths in order to arrive at the number of Territorials now in India. I should like to add this—though I do not say it is any compensation necessarily for having or remain in India—that the Territorial units who do so remain will, of course, receive the bonus granted under the new Royal Warrant.
But, bearing in mind the difficulties into which the Army Council is put as regards the relief of these Territorials, I should like to state on behalf of the Secretary of State how very high is the 92 appreciation in which they hold the services of these Territorials. They fully realise what a contribution the Territorials made to the security of the State when they came forward and volunteered, as they did, for foreign service in 1914, and what a contribution they have made also to the security of India and to the relief of other forces by maintaining the garrisons in that country. They have, of course, not had the thrill and movement of great campaigns; they have not had the opportunity, as my noble friend says, of earning the honours and rewards which their brethren have had in Mesopotamia, in France, and in other parts of the world; they have had rather the common round and the duller task of duty, and they have performed it in a way that has earned general admiration.
Though it is no consolation, no doubt, to these gallant men, I think that we, their friends, may congratulate ourselves on this—that at least the bulk of these men will return to their country and their friends in good health and strength, and, moreover, during the period that they may have to spend in the hot weather in India they will have good cantonments and other advantages to maintain them in good health. Thus I am afraid that I cannot, except in what I have said, give full satisfaction to my noble friend, except as regards the reduction of the numbers of the Territorials. But I think they ought to feel that their case is by no means neglected or unconsidered, and that their services receive on all hands—particularly from the Army Council and the Secretary of State—full recognition and thanks.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, my noble friend who has just spoken has certainly said something which may be of comfort to the Territorial Force in India. Not only has he spoken in very just and proper terms of appreciation of the great services which they have rendered, but he has also assured my noble friend (Lord Harris) that there will be a substantial reduction in the numbers of the Territorials left in India. Yet there is one point which, if I mistake not, my noble friend Lord Harris made to which my noble friend Lord Peel did not reply—namely, that there must be still in India a certain number of men belonging to the Territorial Force who went out originally with their battalions. I do not suppose they are 93 more than a comparatively small proportion of the actual numbers there at the present moment, but their case is certainly and particularly hard, because they went out under an impression, if not with an absolute Pledge—a pledge which it is no blame to the Government that they could not keep an assurance that they would be back at home within a few months, whereas they have been kept out four years. What I think my noble friend Lord Harris asked, and what I would press upon the Government, was whether, in deciding on the numbers of Territorials to be left in India, they have borne in mind the specially hard case of these particular individuals. I should have thought it possible, without unduly depleting the garrison in India, where, there were men who had gone out originally and been the recipients of this pledge, to have made an exception in their favour, and, if possible, brought them home. The interests of the State and the security of India must, of course, stand first; and I am sure that none of your Lordships would wish to say a word which would embarrass the Government in the matter; but we think that the case of these men is a very hard one, and if the Secretary of State will take it into consideration perhaps something will be done.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, I should like to say a word in support of the case laid before the House by my noble friend Lord Harris. I happen to be in a position to know the feeling which prevails in some of the Territorial battalions that have been in India since the beginning of the war. There can be no doubt that their case is a very hard one indeed; and I was glad to observe, from the reply made by Lord Peel, that His Majesty's Government themselves really feel that it is a hard ease and will do all that they possibly can to mitigate it. We must all be aware, of course, that there are considerable difficulties in providing the necessary reliefs; but I trust that the case of these battalions will not be lost sight of. They showed very great gallantry and alacrity at the beginning of the war, and it is really hard that they should not receive some measure of indulgence.
I should like to read to your Lordships, if I may, a few sentences from a letter which has reached me from a very gallant officer in command of one of these Terri- 94 torial battalions. He writes from India, and says—
When is our demobilisation coming, I wonder? This picking men of various trades to send home is causing endless dissatisfaction. It is no fault of anyone's that the battalions retained in India were not. sent to a front.They feel that very strongly; they were quite ready to go to the front if they had had the chance.It is simply the fortune of war. Eight fine line battalions are in the same box. The men at the fronts have had opportunities of leave, etc., but these men of ours have been leading the deadly monotonous lives incidental to soldiering in the plains in India. We have lost a number during the past hot weather, and I am afraid if they are kept here for another the mortality will be great.Then with regard to what Lord Peel said as to privileges in the way of leave, and so forth, my correspondent writes—They do not even get their full time in the hills as there is generally a disturbance amongst these—A word is missing there—revolutionary Bengalees, and our men have to be hastily recalled. The Government are making a big mistake in attempting to apply the same system of demobilisation in India as in France.That is a feeling which I believe is deeply ingrained amongst the officers and men of these battalions, and I very earnestly hope that the War Office will take it into their consideration.
§ VISCOUNT PEELMy Lords, by leave of the House I may, perhaps, say a word with regard to what the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, said in connection with the men who went out earlier. The noble Marquess said that some special advantage in demobilisation should be granted to them. I think what he said implied that there were a good many of these 33,000, and possibly of the smaller number, who had gone out later. That is not so. The men of whom I have been speaking all went out in the early stages of the war; and I think I am right in saying that in 1916 and subsequently all the drafts that went out were not Territorials but were composed of other troops which went out either to units in India or to fill up gaps in the Territorials units there.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThose are not reckoned as Territorials?
§ VISCOUNT PEELNo. Therefore the men for whom the noble Marquess speaks 95 really constitute the great bulk of those men, and this makes it more difficult to exercise any particular selection amongst them May I be allowed to say also that I have a special sympathy for these men, because I myself was very nearly one them. it was only by the fortunate accident that the Commander-in-Chief in India at that time preferred a Regular Cavalry regiment to the Yeomanry regiment which I commanded that I am not there now. However, I will represent strongly to the War Office what has been said by the noble Marquess.
LORD HARRISMy Lords, with the leave of the House I should like to add a word. As to the original Territorials who went to India, my noble friend says that some 8,000 to 10,000 may be able to come home by reduction of establishment those who are unfit; so that if these men who went out first are amongst the fit they will not have as good a chance of being demobilised as the physically unfit. I hope my noble friend will bear that in mind.
As I am permitted to say another word I should like to mention one other thing; it is not in my Question, but I referred to the fact that these units had no chance of the war decoration which their comrades who happened to be chosen for France had; and, owing to the extension of the Mons Star to 1915, their comrades who went to other parts of the war line have an advantage over them. I therefore respectfully submit for the consideration of my noble friend, who might be disposed to present it to the Army Council for His Majesty's gracious consideration, whether the old Territorial who volunteered for the war in 1914—whether he went to India, or to France, or to Egypt, or anywhere else, or was not sent abroad until 1916 (he displayed the same; patriotism;he always had done his duty by serving in a military unit, serving his country before the war and preparing himself for the war) whether he is not entitled to some consideration for a special decoration?
§ VISCOUNT PEELIn answer to the noble Lord's first point, of course among the further reductions which I suggest as possible, and which I hope may be effected, clearly in that case the healthier members might have good opportunity of coming back. The question of the unfit men referred to the earlier reduction of which I spoke. As to the question of a special 96 decoration of Territorials who had agreed to foreign service on the outbreak of war, and who, owing to accident of position rather than anything else, have not obtained the '14'–15 Star or any other decoration, that is now being considered, I may say sympathetically considered I do not want to suggest that it can be done, but the matter is being thoroughly looked into.
§ LORD NUNBURNHOLMEMay I ask whether it is intended to keep these Territorial battalions in India after peace has been declared?
§ VISCOUNT PEELThat, I am afraid, will depend upon when peace is declared. It is obvious that if peace is declared in July it will not be possible to bring them back until the usual trooping season.
§ LORD NUNBURNHOLMEMay I take it that they will be brought back at the first available opportunity after the trooping season recommences
§ VISCOUNT PEELWe hope that by that time the New Armies, or, if the term preferred, the new Provisional Armies, will be ready, and the men in question will be among the first to be brought back.