§ Message from the Commons: That they agree to certain of the Amendments made by the Lords to the Ministry of Transport Bill (changed from the Ministry of Ways and Communications Bill) without amendment; they agree to certain other of the Amendments with Amendments; they disagree to one other of the Amendments, but propose an Amendment to the Bill in lieu thereof; and they disagree to one other of the Amendments, for which disagreement they assign a Reason.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (THE EARL OF CRAWFORD)The Commons Amendments are not yet circulated. I suggest, therefore, that they should be taken at a later stage in our proceedings to-day.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThat can only be done by Order of the House.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDI under-stand that the House has already empowered the Government to vary the Order of Proceedings.
§ VISCOUNT MIDLETONIs it possible to take the Bill to-night? After all, there is a large number of subjects coming on, and if the Transport Bill is taken late, what attendance can you expect, especially as noble Lords have not had the Bill since it came back from the House of Commons? What I feel is that if the Bill conies on at seven or eight o'clock it is impossible that justice will be done to it.
§ THE MARQUESS OF, SALISBURYI do not want to make difficulty, but I anticipate I am quite correct in saying that when the business appears on the Paper, that is technically by Order of the House. A subject is deemed to have been put there by Order of the House, and the Order cannot be varied except by Order of the House. But, of course, with the Standing Order suspended, the Government can arrange to put the business in what order they please. When a subject is on the Paper it is placed there by Order of the House. I believe that is technically correct. If so, it would be for the noble Earl to submit a Motion to postpone that Order. It is merely a technical matter. I must say that, although it is impossible for us to discuss the Transport Bill until we have the material before us, and therefore some 877 postponement must take, place, I think the noble Earl ought to make some expression of regret to the House that we should be treated in this way. I really think, of all the astonishing things—
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDI desire at once to say that the noble Marquess was not in the House when I began my remarks.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI express my apologies to the noble Earl. I was not aware of that.
§ LORD EMMOTTIs it known when we shall get the Commons Amendments? Some, of them, I understand, are important, and require a little time for consideration.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDThe Standing Order sets out correctly what Lord Salisbury has just stated to be the rule and practice of your Lordships' House, but that Standing Order has been suspended, and I am advised that in these circumstances the order of the Notice, as printed upon the Order Paper, can be varied. I call your Lordships' attention to the fact that, with regard to the Amendment the Notice was qualified by the words "if received from the Commons." As your Lordships heard just now from the learned Clerk at the Table, the intimation that these Amendments had been dealt with elsewhere has only just reached us, and the printed document is not yet in our hands. It was sent to be printed, I understand, at ten o'clock this morning, but has not yet reached this House. It is clearly impossible, therefore to take the Commons Amendments now. I think Lord Emmott is correct in saying that, though many of your Lordships' Amendments are agreed to, some to which exception is taken are Amendments of substance and importance.
§ LORD EMMOTTI know of one.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDCertainly one, if not more than one. If it is inconvenient to take the Bill to-night at eight o'clock, we shall have to how to that decision; but I do not myself think that eight o'clock is too late to begin an important subject. It depends rather on the amount of time occupied by the Second Reading of the Welsh Church (Temporalities) Bill.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYAs I have done the noble Earl an injustice already, I do not want, to press him unduly. What I venture to suggest as the proper way out of this very extraordinary circumstance is this. I do not think we can resist postponement, because we have no material on which to discuss; but as to whether we take the Bill or not I think, if we agree to alter the business as the noble Earl suggests, it would be right that we should retain within our own power the discretion to decide whether we will take it later on or not. It depends what time we reach it. The noble Earl must see—I am sure he sees—that the Government owe a great deal to the House, and he should leave it to us, when the Welsh Church Bill is through, to decide whether or not we will take the other Bill to-night. If he will leave it like that, between now and when the moment conies we shall be in a position to tell him whether it will be convenient to take it. If he leaves it like that—an honourable understanding that the Bill shall not be taken except by general consent—then I think w could agree.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDIt depends entirely on how long the discussion on the Welsh Church Bill takes. Some of my noble friends beside me think it will not last more than from three to four hours. That may be correct. I beg your Lordships' pardon; the most rev. Primate thinks it may last even less than that. In that case, if the documents relating to the Transport Bill are circulated within the next half-hour, your Lordships will probably have time to examine one or at most two of the Commons Amendments—
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThere are more than that. I have looked at them.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThree or four.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDIt is not for me to say that -we will not leave it to the House to postpone this Bill if the House thinks fit. That I concede at once. But if the House does postpone it, the House must help the Government to find an alternative opportunity—
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYCertainly.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYOr Monday.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDMonday is getting rather late, because on Monday we shall be in the middle of rather difficult technical legislation on other matters. If the House postpones the Bill, I hope it will help us to get through this last stage on Saturday next.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMay I take it that the noble Earl will leave it to the general assent of the House, if we postpone the Transport Bill now, whether we take it this evening or not? We must suit the convenience of your Lordships. There must be a certain number to discuss the matter.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDI do not wish to have a difference of opinion later on. If the Welsh Church Bill finishes by 6.30, I shall press your Lordships to go on with the Transport Bill. That hour is too early to get up when the House has important business before it.