HL Deb 21 March 1918 vol 29 cc571-81

THE EARL OF MEATH had the following Question on the Paper—

To ask His Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that there is no connection between the continued loss of British ships by submarine attack and the large number of aliens and of naturalised British subjects residing in or near seaport towns who have access to docks and wharves, and, if not, whether they will take steps to remove, or at all events to diminish, this national danger.

The noble Earl said: My Lords, in asking this Question I wish to make it quite clear that I am bringing no accusations whatever against His Majesty's Government, nor do I assert that there is any connection between the tonnage losses of British ships by submarine attack and the large number of alien and of naturalised British subjects residing in or near seaport towns who have access to docks and wharves. All I do, my Lords, is to ask whether His Majesty's Government are satisfied that there is no connection between these things. If they are satisfied I am sure the large majority of British people will accept that. We know quite well that His Majesty's Government are just as anxious as we are that the aliens who are within our borders should not be permitted to injure the country. But what we want to be sure about is whether the Government are taking every step which they possibly can, and whether they realise that there is great anxiety on the part of the British public in regard to this matter.

The British public not unnaturally say to themselves. "We are told by the Government of the day that 2,938 ships were sunk in 1917. We are told also by the Home Secretary that 1,809 alien enemies are living in prohibited areas, and that 6,780 aliens are living within the Kingdom. Can it be possible that any of these large numbers of aliens have not had a finger in this pie?" Only quite recently we know that two large hospital ships were torpedoed off Lundy Island almost at the same spot, and that several ships have been lost somewhere about that particular neighbourhood. The public say, "Unless there was some communication, how would the German commander of the submarine dare to show his nose in the neighbourhood of Lundy Island after so many ships had been lost in that neighbourhood?"

I individually, and I am sure your Lordships' house, appreciate the enormous difficulties with which His Majesty's Government have to contend in this matter. We quite realise that there must be very largo numbers of aliens who are doing their best to promote British interests, and we quite recognise the difficulty that there is in distinguishing between those who are assisting us and the others who pretend to assist us and really are assisting the enemy. We also realise that there is just as much danger from a certain number of British subjects, and from neutrals, as there is from aliens who are our enemies. All we want to do is to be able, from the mouth of the Government, to assure the people that everything is being done by the Government which is possible, so that no loophole whatever shall be left to the enemy through which to injure this country. This should be, and no doubt is, also the desire and the aim of His Majesty's Government.

It cannot be said that we have not been given proof after proof of the presence of an extraordinarily intricate system of spying on the part of Germany throughout the whole Empire, and throughout the whole world. Therefore we have some reason to be supicious lest something of the sort may be going on among us. And as it is exceedingly difficult really to get at facts which are first hand, perhaps I may be permitted to give a few instances myself of what has happened to me. It is a matter of general knowledge that aliens attend our public meetings and wait upon us at hotels and at restaurants, travel with us by railway and trams and omnibuses, and I myself have come across, perfectly accidentally, a German dressed as a clergyman. It was at one of our large seaport towns, and I was asking the way in the dusk of the evening, and I came across a man dressed perfectly accurately in an English clergyman's dress, and asked him the way. He answered me in perfectly broken English, with a German accent, that he was a stranger and did not know. I asked myself, Is there in the "Clergy List" a clergyman who happens to be a German? If so, they are very few. Before the war we know that there was a great deal of all that going on, and I have had a German in my house and that was perfectly legitimate. I found him at the Vice-Regal Lodge and brought him down to my house, and before he left I found out exactly what he was and all about him—he did not know it.

Since I put this Question on the Notice Paper I have had a good deal of correspondence. Of course I cannot vouch for any of these correspondents, but very briefly I will say what they tell me. One writes and says he was travelling by the early mail train from Cardiff, and in the train was a person wearing a Naval officer's uniform who spoke English, but the accent, was unmistakably German. Then there is a ship's broker from Swansea. He writes that the communications with Ireland, letters and telegrams should be more strictly censored and the movement of neutral steamers from the Channel to the port of arrival should be strictly investigated. A fitter at the docks writes that the men engaged in the manning of his dock—entrance-bridges and locks—include Norwegians, Dutchmen, Spaniards, and Italians.

From Cardiff I hear that most accurate information of ships' movements up and down the Bristol Channel is obtained by telephone from the coastguard at Barry Island by ships' store runners of all nationalities. A man writes from personal experience— I have on many occasions rung up '66 Barry,' and obtained news of ships passing up and down the Channel, without ever being asked whom represented. That reminds me that on one occasion I went into a munitions factory—this was some time ago, at the beginning of the war—and I went through the whole of that factory and was never asked what my business was, or who I was. I saw everything, and came out and could have told everything there was in that factory. That was rather funny. It happened to me individually.

Another instance. A man writes to say— I have sent information to the authorities time after time with regard to signalling going on in the Bristol Channel, also on the south coast of Devon and in Cornwall, but no attention seems to be paid. The aliens are allowed to live all round the coast and have free access to ports. Another correspondent draws my attention to the fact that there is a standing advertisement in some of the shipping papers which is as follows:— Admiralty Charts.—The latest editions of charts, plans, and sailing directions, published by the Admiralty, can be had from J. G. Potter, Admiralty Agent for Charts, 145, Minories, London. Anybody can buy these. Is that quite safe? Then there is a lady who writes to me and says that on the extreme point of a certain bay—I can tell the noble Lord who replies which bay it is—a German woman, the wife of a clergyman, is frequently signalling to German submarines. Whether she really is I cannot say. She also says in the same locality is a convent of German nuns.

There is another letter I have from a gentleman who was staving at a watering-place, the name of winch I will not mention, for a few days last autumn, and observed a typical old German sitting most evenings at the end of the quay, with the boys who were fishing. He was very friendly with them, asking questions in a perfectly innocent way. "Vot is dat leedle fish?" All this may be untrue or exaggerated, or partly true—I cannot say. All I want to find out is whether His Majesty's Government are satisfied that things are going on as they ought to be. We know, of course, that His Majesty's Government are anxious to do everything they can to prevent any system of spying from being carried on; but I think that many of the answers that have been given in both Houses of Parliament have been sometimes rather more a discouragement to one than otherwise. I can remember being told more than once in this House by the noble Lord who has perhaps done more for British prisoners than any other, that some of us appeared to want to see Germans "guzzling behind barbed wire." That gives the impression that the Government are not very anxious to receive information with regard to what is going on.

I may be wrong, but I believe it to be true that telephone messages can be sent without censorship. Telephone messages might easily be sent to Ireland, and from thence communicated to the enemy. Are all telephone messages censored, or would it be possible for a telephone message of a seditious character to he sent to Ireland without anybody being the wiser? Another thing. Do His Majesty's Government recognise that some British and some neutrals are as dangerous as Germans—perhaps more so? On Monday last Sir George Cave said that one-half of the 1,809 aliens who are allowed to live in prohibited areas are women; and that since July, 1916, upwards of 700 have been sent overseas. I trust that His Majesty's Government will continue this policy, not only in the case of women but in the case of men. Some people have suggested that these persons might be used as ballast in ships returning to America. Anyhow, the Government might see whether they cannot place more of these aliens outside these islands, where their presence would, perhaps, be comparatively harmless.

LORD BERESFORD

My Lords, I desire to support my noble friend. The merchant service as a whole believe that there is close connection between these sinkings and spies. I have been down to Cardiff and to Swansea, and have spoken to many captains and others connected with shipping. These people are perfectly convinced that there are too many aliens in the Swansea and Cardiff docks. But it is not only the Germans who are dangerous; it is the naturalised aliens, and the people connected with neutral ships that come in. Our mercantile marine have been more than good. Their heroism is unbounded; and it is our duty to see that nobody shall affect the position of these men when they go to sea, by spying or otherwise giving away information that may lead to their destruction.

We cannot do enough for the mercantile marine. They have to face sufficient dangers without the dangers incurred from the shore by means of spies. Sir Edward Nicoll, whom I know very well and who was two and a half years on the examination service at Cardiff and Swansea and the Welsh Coast, told me that there were too many aliens in the docks. These aliens go there under all sorts of pretences, selling combs, fruit, and other pedlar's wares, and a large number of them should be cleared out. I trust that the noble Earl who is going to reply will give us some information as to how many of these aliens have been cleared out from these docks and interned. I should like to hear him say that the whole of them will he cleared out because, although you might do injustice to two or three people, the lives of our merchant seamen should be above every other consideration.

Our mercantile marine have fed us, and also the Army and the Navy. Without their heroic gallantry we could not have gone on with the war as long as we have, and victory would be absolutely impossible without them. Therefore, on their behalf, I enter a protest against so maul aliens being allowed at the docks. I maintain that there is spying going on; otherwise how is it possible for hospital ships and other vessels, outward bound, to be put down in the same place? How is it that a submarine captain the other day abused one of our captains for being so many hours late? Again, a submarine captain had a receipted bill from an English hotel in his pocket when he was captured. If the noble Earl has not heard of the case, I will let hint know about it.

Anyway there is not enough supervision; and we are not careful enough about the lives of the men we are sending to sea to fetch our foal. The suspicion amongst the men of the mercantile marine is very strong, and naval officers also have the suspicion, that there are a great deal too many aliens in the country. It is far worse to have an enemy in your rear than to have one in front of you that you can see and fight. I hope that the noble Earl will give us some satisfactory answer as to what is going to be done to clear those aliens out of the docks.

THE ADDITIONAL PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE EARL OF LYTTON)

My Lords, the implication in the Question of the noble Earl, although he disclaimed holding that view himself, is that there is some connection between the continued loss of British ships by submarine attack and the presence of a large number of aliens and naturalised British subjects in our ports; and the noble Earl asked whether the Government share that view. My answer is, very definitely and emphatically, in the negative. We do not share that view. I have already stated that once in this House, and it has been stated on more than one occasion in the House of Commons. But I do not suppose that, if this assurance were repeated ever so many times, it would prevent a certain number of people from believing that this connection exists. The noble and gallant Lord who has just spoken told us that he himself believes that there is this connection, and that he knows of many others who hold the same view.

The difficulty is this. I can give your Lordships an assurance that we do not believe that this connection exists; but I cannot remove doubts and suspicions which may exist in the minds of any of your Lordships, or of others, without going into details and giving a great deal of information which it would be obviously impossible for me to give. I am obliged, therefore, to confine myself to general statements, and to ask your Lordships to believe that, if I make a general statement, it is based upon facts within the knowledge of the authorities. I would like, if I can, to give the noble Earl some reassurance upon three points in particular. In the first place I would point out that the explanation which he has given, or, rather, which he has implied in his Question, for the continual sinking of ships, is really not required. I have been somewhat criticised for stating, in answer to the noble and gallant Lord a few days ago, that where submarines were operating in particular waters losses of ships were inevitable. I am aware that this is an obvious platitude. But my real reason for stating anything so obvious was to emphasise the fact that it is not necessary to go out of your way to discover causes either for the continued losses of ships or for the loss of any particular ship. It would be, I think, just as unreasonable to allege as a cause for the destruction of any particular house or property in any particular locality in an air raid the presence of aliens in the town. When the sea is as full of ships as it is the opportunities for destruction afforded to submarines are so great that the wonder really is not that so many ships are destroyed but that so many of them escape. I only repeat this very obvious thing in order to ask you to believe that it is not necessary to invent, or to imagine, the action of enemy agents to account for the destruction of ships in particular waters. Then again the aliens and naturalised British subjects who live in our ports or near our ports are persons about whom the authorities know a great deal more than does the general public. The noble Earl spoke of having met by accident a German dressed as a clergyman. He may meet, or his friends may meet, aliens or naturalised British subjects in a great many places, but they are not there by accident and their presence in all these districts is known to the authorities.

THE EARL OF MEATH

May I interrupt? I made inquiries whether this man was known, and he was not known.

THE EARL OF LYTTON

Of course, I need not say that the authorities always welcome any information from any individuals as to their own personal experiences. Mere repetition of stories they have heard is of little value, because they cannot be investigated, but definite information is always welcomed and is always examined and investigated; and the point which I wish to make is this, that although there are, it is quite true, a large number of aliens living in our ports, the authorities have full knowledge concerning them, and they must therefore be the best judges of whether or not it is safe for those persons to reside in those places.

The noble Earl read a letter from one of his correspondents stating that information had been continually sent to the authorities and that nothing had been done. Probably by nothing being done is meant that the persons continue to be there although information had been sent to the authorities that they were aliens and were residing in a particular place. It is not to be assumed that because the action suggested by a particular correspondent is not taken the case is ignored by the authorities and nothing is done. I repeat that those who have the fullest information as to the antecedents, the business, and the movements of registered aliens or of naturalised British subjects must be the best and only judges whether or not it is safe for them to reside in particular localities.

LORD BERESFORD

They never acted at all until public opinion made them.

THE EARL OF LYTTON

The last point on which I wish to give the House an assurance is this, that where danger does exist—and I do not deny for a moment that there is danger, and there are, of course, agents in this country perpetually seeking to obtain information for our enemies—the powers already enjoyed by the authorities are sufficient to deal with it, and, moreover, no inter-Departmental friction or difficulty is ever allowed to prevent those powers being exercised. As the House knows, there are three Depart- ments concerned in this question. The Admiralty, the War Office, and the Home Office are all concerned with the registration of aliens in different parts of the country. They act in the closest possible co-operation, and are constantly in consultation with each other, and I can assure the noble Earl that the Admiralty have no difficulty whatever, so far as the other Departments are concerned, in getting their wishes carried out. I am afraid I cannot give the noble and gallant Lord the figures for which he asks. I do not know either the total number of aliens in this country at this moment or the number who have been expatriated. If he wants the figures no doubt they can be obtained.

To those who think that we are ignorant and blind and inactive it is quite impossible to give any answer that would prove reassuring. But to those of your Lordships who are genuinely anxious to know to what extent the danger referred to by the noble Earl exists, and how far we are alive to it, I would like to repeat that the danger does of course exist, that it is fully recognised, and that constant precautions are taken to guard against it. I might perhaps add this, that the Question which the noble Earl has put upon the Paper, and other Questions which have been recently asked in the House of Commons, have drawn special attention to this subject and have led to a recent consultation between the Admiralty, the Home Office, and the War Office with a view to seeing whether either of those Departments have any information which perhaps was not at the disposal of the others. The result of that Conference was that there was a unanimous agreement that there was no evidence at all forthcoming pointing to any direct connection between the presence of aliens in or near our seaport towns and the continued losses of our ships by submarine attack.

I would conclude by repeating that any information that noble Lords can at any time supply to us is valuable. As your Lordships know, there are persons who see spies in every house and in every corner. The noble Earl has given us a little insight into his correspondence. He can well imagine, from what he has received, the kind of correspondence that reaches the authorities in charge of this matter. We are perpetually hearing stories of signalling to submarines, and I do not think that, of the hundreds and thousands of stories of this kind that have been investigated, I can recall to mind a single case which has been definitely proved. But they are always investigated, unless they happen to be stories which have been previously examined, and of which therefore a new investigation is not required. But this is a danger against which we are perpetually on our guard, and we greatly welcome any assistance which anybody can give us to make the country still more sure; and if I have stated that we are satisfied that there is no connection between the sinking of ships and the presence of aliens, I have done so not with the object of making your Lordships believe that we have no suspicion in that direction, but merely to assure you that our attention is perpetually directed towards possible danger from this source. Although we are convinced that at the present time it is not necessary to find this excuse for the loss of ships, we are always ready to investigate any information which can be given to us of a definite kind based on personal experience.

THE EARL OF MEATH

My Lords, with the permission of the House may I thank the noble Earl for having answered me so thoroughly and sympathetically? Perhaps I may be permitted also to point out that it is not always the case that the authorities know how many aliens there are in their district or who they are. Only the other day there appeared in the paper a paragraph to this effect. Headed "Thousands of Aliens," it stated that when an alien was summoned at Willesden for not notifying his change of address, Mr. Hanbury, the magistrate, asked: "Are not these men looked up occasionally?" The inspector replied: "No, sir; there are several thousands in the district, so that we could not do it." The magistrate said: "All the more reason," and imposed a fine of 20s.

LORD LAMINGTON

My Lords, the noble Earl gave a very reassuring statement about the stories that most of us hear, but may I draw attention to one story which was prevalent in Scotland, and if that story is untrue it would be desirable to law its ghost. It was alluded to by the noble and gallant Lord on my left. It has reference to a U-boat captain asking how it was that a certain ship he had torpedoed—the crew had escaped in a boat—was so many days late. The implication was that the ship had been delayed owing to the transfer of cargo from one ship to two ships for greater safety in going to Archangel, and the ship had been torpedoed off the north of Scotland. That was the story, and many points in it seem to be quite capable of proof. Therefore it is very desirable if the story is false that we should lay its ghost, just as hundreds and thousands of others have been found to be false, as the noble Earl says. The noble Earl has no doubt heard this story.

THE EARL OF LYTTON

My Lords, I had not heard that particular story, although I recognise its family likeness to a great many others. If the noble Lord really has heard that story from anybody who can give the name and address of the person to whom it was said, I should be extremely grateful if he would supply me with the facts. These stories are constantly repeated, and on investigation we find it is always three of four times removed from the original narrator, and one can never get to the individual who is said to have had the experience. It is a very familiar type of story. I do not believe it for a moment, but I do not say that it could not have been true. I certainly assure the noble Lord that if he will supply me with information that can be investigated it will be investigated.