HL Deb 29 January 1918 vol 28 cc152-72

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee upon the said Bill. But before the noble and learned Lord puts the Question, I should like to be allowed to make a remark or two. Your Lordships will see that I have a large number of Amendments on the Paper, but they are all more or less of a drafting nature. There may, however, be one or two upon which your Lordships may desire an explanation, and I shall, of course, do my best to give it to you.

On Clause 22 there is an important Amendment by the noble Viscount, Lord Knutsford, especially in regard to what has been, I think, miscalled the "wedding present" of £2. Lord Knutsford has put down Amendments with which I am sorry to say I cannot agree, because the money in the Bill would not meet the necessary expenditure. I have observed through the ordinary channels, and also from various indications, that there is a considerable amount of dissatisfaction in the minds of your Lordships with this £2 marriage benefit as it is in the Bill. The reasons for that I need not repeat, because they are well known to your Lordships. At the same time I think it is fair to say that I do not share them. I am, however, most anxious to meet your Lordships' general wish, and as far as I possibly can to meet my noble friend Lord Knutsford in the direction in which he is anxious to move. I propose to withdraw the suggestion as to the £2 marriage benefit in its present form, and instead to place to the credit of a woman that amount, resulting in spreading the benefit, including the maternity benefit, over a longer period—that is, to the end of a calendar year next after ceasing employment. That, I think your Lordships will agree, is more in the spirit of insurance, and more in the spirit of the Act of 1911. I hope that when I am able to explain my Amendment your Lordships will consider that it is an honest endeavour to meet the situation. It is true that I have, to some extent, to sacrifice what was considered by my advisers as a great inducement to those women to give the notification of their marriage, which is a very real necessity, but I hope to compensate for that, if not entirely, to a very great degree, by arrangements being made to notify oft insurance cards and in insurance books in large visible letters the rights of these women and the advantages that will accrue from giving this notice.

I am very sorry to say that it has been impossible for me to put upon the Notice Paper to-night, owing to the immense rush of business, the drat of my Amendment. But there has been a certain amount of virtue in delay, because in the interval that has elapsed I have been able to come to agreement with my noble friend, Lord Knutsford, in regard to the Amendment which I shall propose to-morrow. I propose to bring it up on Report, and on that account I do not propose to press Clause 22 finally. I therefore also hope that my noble friend, in his turn, will see fit not to press his Amendment to Clause 22, and that as the Bill came up as an agreed Bill to your Lordships from the House of Commons, so it will leave your Lordships' House when the proper time comes.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee. —(Viscount Sandhurst.))

VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD

As Lord Sandhurst has kindly alluded to me, may I say that I certainly agree not to move the Amendment which stands in my name and in Lord Sydenham's name. Lord Sandhurst, in his firm and very courteous way, has disarmed opposition, and he says that he will bring in a clause on the Report stage which we have already considered and to which I earnestly hope we shall be able to agree. But my main reason for not moving the Amendment which stands in my name to-night is that the £2 wedding gift is to-day as dead as the dodo, and it will never be revived. There is no suggestion that when the Report stage arrives there shall be any £2 wedding gift. The money will be used for the purposes for which it was subscribed. The country owes a great debt of gratitude to Lord Sandhurst for the firm and conciliatory way in which he has considered the opposition of those who have very great regret in ever differing front him. We shall therefore wait with interest for to-morrow, when he will bring up his Amendment, and I most earnestly hope that we shall be able to agree to it.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL of KINTORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The three Amendments standing in my name on this Clause are drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved— Page 2, line 14, after ("societies") insert ("and who are employed contributors") Page 2, line 29, leave out from ("moneys") to ("towards") in line 30, mid insert ("applicable") Page 2, line 31, leave out ("their liabilities") and insert ("the liabilities of the Insurance Commissioners").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The first seven Amendments on this clause are all drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved— Page 3, line 10, leave oat ("meaning") and insert ("making good") Page 3, line 13, leave out ("in meeting") and insert ("towards making good") Page 3, line 17, leave out ("in" ) and insert ("towards") Page 3, line 18, leave out ("so far as is possible") Page 3, line 20, leave out ("meet") and insert ("make good"). Page 4 line 11, leave out ("meeting") and insert ("making good") Page 4, line 18, leave out ("meeting") and insert ("making good").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The next Amendment deals with the case where an employer guarantees the solvency of a fund. The clause deals at present only with the case where he makes good the amount of any deficiency. But there is also the case where he is liable to make good the benefits; and this Amendment is to put the clause in order.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 5, after ("fund") insert ("or for the benefits payable thereout.").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The next Amendment is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 7, after ("deficiency") insert ("or to make up to their full amount the benefits payable out of the fund").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

This is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 13, leave out ("contributions towards") and insert ("substantial contributions to").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The object of the next Amendment is that Section 16 of the Act of 1913 does not provide that the powers must be exercised within six months, but that representations must be made within six months.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 18, leave out ("representations") and insert ("submission").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

This is a consequential Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page, 6, line 19, after ("exercise") insert ("on representations made").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The next Amendment is purely drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 20, leave out ("are") and insert ("were") and after ("exercised") insert ("on representations made").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The object of this Amendment is that it is not intended to require a representation in the society as a whole, but by some of the members only.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 30, leave out ("by the society").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 4 to 6 agreed to.

Clause 7:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The two Amendments standing in my name on this clause are drafting and consequential respectively.

Amendments moved— Page 8, line 19, leave out ("fifth day of November") and insert ("first day of January") Page 8, line, 20, leave out ("seventeen and have") and insert ("eighteen, or who having at any previous time been insured as voluntary contributors ceased to be so insured by reason of becoming employed contributors and were insured persons at that date, and have in either case").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

This Amendment on Clause 8 is drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 12, leave out ("hereafter") and insert ("thereafter").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9 agreed to.

Clause 10:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The first Amendment on this clause is drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 32, leave out ("the rate of contribution") and insert ("contributions").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The clause fixes a flat rate of contribution, in the case of exempt persons, at 3d. for England, and 2½d. for Ireland. At present a foreign-going seaman pays a contribution of 2d., and the object of the Amendment is to secure in these cases that the present arrangement may be continued; otherwise the employer would have to pay the larger sum.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 34, leave out ("be a sum") and insert ("except where the person employed is a master, seaman, or apprentice to the sea service or the sea fishing service, serving on a foreign-going ship, or a ship engaged in regular trade on foreign stations, be at the rate").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The next Amendment on the Paper is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 9, lines 34 and 35, leave out ("the amount mentioned in") and insert ("at the rate payable under the provisions of").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 11 agreed to.

Clause 12:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

My first Amendment to this clause is to enable a Society to dispense with the formal proof where it is satisfied from prima facie evidence already in its possession that the delay in notifying a sickness claim is not due to the member's default.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 20, leave out the first ("the") and insert ("in the ease of any"), and leave out ("proves to").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The words in the Bill suggest that a dispute can be decided only by the Commissioners. That is a mistake, and the object of my next Amendment is to get rid of that erroneous impression.

Amendment moved— Page 10, lines 27 and 28, leave out ("or on appeal to the Insurance Commissioners") and insert ("are satisfied, or if in the case of a dispute it is decided in manner provided by the principal Act").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The next three are drafting Amendments.

Amendment moved— Page 10, lines 32 and 33, leave out ("as from the third day "of") and insert ("commencing on the fourth day of the" ).—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 35, leave out ("as from the commencement") and insert ("commencing on the first day").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 39, after ("on") insert ("the day next after").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SYDENHAM moved a new subsection (4). The noble Lord said: I will not detain your Lordships except to say one word about this Amendment, the object of which is to abolish the misconduct rule, which is admitted by everybody to be a dangerous mistake and a mistake that must be removed. The effect of it has been to cause concealment of disease, thereby preventing treatment from being given at the proper time and increasing the dangers to the public afterwards. The economic effect upon the insurance societies has been that they get burdened in later years with the later effects of these diseases and suffer financially therefrom. I think it is generally conceded now that this rule must go. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to read a few words from a letter which I have received from Sir Thomas Barlow in support of my Amendment. [The noble Lord read the letter and proceeded.] I think it expresses and gives full reasons for this Amendment and the need for it; but the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill has very kindly discussed the matter with me and has a proposal to make. It partly meets my view, though not quite; but I am willing to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment moved.

Page 11, line 6, after subsection (3) insert the following new subsection: (4) Notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in any rule of an approved society, or branch of such society, an insured person who is suffering from any form of venereal disease, shall not, on the ground that this disease is or may have been due to misconduct, be deprived of any sickness or disablement benefit to which he or she would, but for that provision have been entitled."—(Loral Sydenham.)

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

Of course, I very much appreciate what the noble Lord has said and also the great authority of Sir Thomas Barlow, but I am advised that the object of the Amendment is more likely to be gained, and without friction, by not putting it in the Bill but leaving it to be done by the rules of the societies. There is a great delay unquestionably in regard to making rules by the societies, because, like every other institution of whatever kind, the difficulty of getting people to attend public meetings to ratify rules is almost insuperable; and, as the noble Lord has said, I have agreed to submit an Amendment which will enable a society to make rules without holding these meetings. Many societies have acknowledged the desirability of the change. It is proposed to issue a circular to the societies by the Commissioners indicating the views put forward by the noble Lord, and if, when the circular is drafted, he will be good enough to assist the Commissioners they would be glad to avail themselves of his services.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 13:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The next is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 11, line 12, after ("months") insert ("commencing").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The Amendment I now move is designed to make clear that the society concerned is responsible for the cost of the medical and sanatorium benefit until the expiration of the year in which the person ceased to be an insured person, if he ceased to be a member during the term of the year. It makes it clear that such a person is to be treated as if he were still a member of the Society.

Amendment moved— Page 11, line 17, after ("person") inert ("and a member of an approved society").— (Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The proviso which I now move is interesting. Under the provisions of Clause 13 persons who have ceased to be employed are afforded a year's free insurance after they have so ceased. That has been called the "year of grace." If employment has not been resumed before the expiration of the year the benefits cease, and in the event of persons subsequently resuming employment they are treated as new entrants and there is to be a fresh waiting period. The continuance of insurance for a strictly limited period, which I have described, is secured to members of certain classes of persons temporarily engaged in war work, which is not employment within the meaning of the Act, or who have been otherwise employed in ordinary occupations. These include (1) nurses, (2) women enrolled in the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps and analogous services employed outside the United Kingdom—if they are employed at home they would be insured on the ordinary terms—(3) other persons ordinarily employed in civilian capacities in France or elsewhere, whether directly in the employ of the Government or of contractors, and (4) civilians, merchant seamen, and others interned. It is proposed to safeguard the position of these classes by providing that their benefit rights shall subject to prescribed conditions, be continued for two months after the expiration of their war occupation or twelve months after the commencement of it, whichever is the longer. The Amendment deals with cases of persons who entered into a war occupation after the coming into operation of the Amending Act. A later Amendment on page 12 safeguards the position of those who have already entered in the same way.

Amendment moved—

Page 11, line 17, at end insert: Provided that where any such person yeasts to be employed as aforesaid by reason of entering on some prescribed class of occupation in connection with the war, not being employment within the meaning of Part I of the principal Act (in this section referred to as 'war occupation') or by reason of being interned in an enemy country as a prisoner of war or otherwise, he shall, subject to such conditions with respect to payment of contributions and otherwise as may be prescribed, remain an insured person until two months after the termination of the war occupation or internment, as the case may be, or until the expiration of twelve months from the date on which he ceased to be employed as aforesaid, whichever date is the later."—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The Amendment in lines 23 and 24 is drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 11, lines 23 and 24, leave out ("on appeal to the Insurance Commissioners") and insert ("if in the case of a dispute it is decided in manner provided by the principal Act").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The next Amendments are drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 11, line 24, after ("is") insert ("or was") Page 11, line 25, leave out from ("work") to ("or") in line 26, and insert ("due to some specific disease or bodily or mental disablement") Page 11, line 27, after ("within") insert ("and in respect of") Page 11, line 25, leave out ("during which he is unemployed") and insert ("of unemployment") Page 11, line 31, after ("months") insert ("commencing") Page 11, line 36, at end insert ("and a member of an approved society").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST moved to omit from the commencement of subsection (6) to the word "so" ["that date so"] in order to insert a new subsection. The noble Viscount said: The object is to make it clear that, where a person has ceased to be employed before the commencement of the new Act, the twelve months is taken to run, not from the date when he ceased to be insured but from the date when he ceased to be employed. It also safeguards the position of those who have been engaged on work.

Amendment move—

Page 12, line 5, leave out from beginning to ("so") in line 8, and insert Where any person having been insured as an employed contributor at any time within twelve months before the date of the commencement of this Act ceased to be employed within the meaning of Part I of the principal Act before that date, or where ally person having been insured as an employed contributor at any time since, the thirty-first day of July, nineteen hundred and fourteen, ceased before the commencement of this Act to be employed within the meaning of Part I of the principal Act by reason of entering on war occupation or by reason of being interned as aforesaid, this Act shall apply to him though it had been in force on the date when he so ceased to be employed."—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 14:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

All the Amendments on the Paper to Clause 14 are drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 12, line 21, leave out ("six months") and insert ("twenty-sewn weeks") Page 12, lines 26 and 27, leave out ("their satisfaction") and insert ("the satisfaction of the Commissioners") Page 12, line 29, leave out ("they") and insert ("the Commissioners"). Page 14, lines 18 and 19, leave out ("or who has ceased to be an insured person before") and insert ("before or who having previously been insured is not an insured person at the date of") Page 14, line 24, after ("person") insert ("not being a member of any approved society").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15 agreed to.

Clause 16:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The Amendment is a drafting one.

Amendment moved— Page 15, line 37, after ("value") insert ("it").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17, at-reed to.

Clause 18:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

These are all drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved— Page 17, line 33, leave out ("benefits") and insert ("benefit"). Page 18, line 16, leave out ("is not") and insert ("has not been" ) Page 18, line 19, leak out from ("the") to the second ("of") in line 20, and insert ("period during which he was not so employed in each such year was not so employed for some reason other Clout incapacity for work due to some specific disease or bodily or mental disablement").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 19:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The Amendments to this clause are drafting. The first is put in as the money might, be paid into Court.

Amendments moved— Page 19, line 15, leave out ("paid to the insured person") and insert ("duly paid") Page 19, line 35, after ("to") insert ("receive or") and after ("not") insert ("received or") Page 19, line 39, after ("committee") insert ("or in the case of a dispute as determined in manner provided by the principal Act"). Page 20, line 7, after ("any") insert ("or the weekly value of the lump suns (if any) paid or") Page 20, line 8, leave out ("to") Page 20, line 9, leave out ("is entitled") and insert ("would, if there had been no such payment, allowance or benefit, have been entitled to receive or recover ")—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 20:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

These are two drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved— Page 20, line 15, leave out ("be applied") Page 20, line 18, after ("person") insert ("be applied").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

The Amendment standing in my name is intended to strike at the root of what is really a grave scandal, and not only a scandal in itself but a very grave waste of public money. It certainly ought to be cured, and the opportunity of this Bill ought to be taken to cure it. Insured persons often take advantage of Poor Law and public institutions. They are entitled to claim maintenance and treatment in Poor Law institutions, and during the period of that treatment the insurance benefit of 10s. a week is funded on their behalf, and paid to them when they leave the institution. No payment is made for the cost of maintenance and treatment. The persons who take advantage of this class of institutions are usually drawn from a rank of society who may in some cases have had great difficulties but who certainly are not those who can be described as in any way well behaved or as objects of sympathy. They are usually drawn, I think I may say, from the lowest rank of society, and are in many instances practically hopeless in their habits. They often have no responsibilities which have to be met during the course of their treatment. They often pay no rent, they live in common lodging houses, and their money accumulates. At the termination of their treatment a lump sum is paid to these individuals and is spent in riotous living of various kinds.

I respectfully argue that no person should be entitled to draw benefit from two public funds at the same time. If individuals are maintained in a Poor Law Institution, they ought not to get the benefit of the insurance, or if they do they ought to pay for the benefits they receive. I do not go so far as that in this Amendment, because the Poor Law authorities for whom I speak have no desire to make a profit out of those people; but they do dislike the idea of their living at the expense of the rates and then getting a sum of money out of public funds and spending it upon no useful purpose.

The object of my Amendment is to save the money for the insurance. The Poor Law authorities for whom I am speaking do not ask that it should be paid to them. If the institution is a private one I think it is paid to that institution now, but I do not think at any rate that the people should get the benefit of the institution and pocket the money. This is no small thing. I have the figures for last year for Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Govan. In Edinburgh nearly a thousand people in the year have got this benefit wrongfully, as I think; and in Glasgow, between January, 1917, and January, 1918, nearly 10,000 people received this insurance benefit, having been supported in Poor Law institutions during illness. I think I have said enough to show, whether this Amendment can be accepted or not, that there is a strong case for reform and that a public scandal exists which this opportunity ought to be taken to remedy.

Amendment moved— Page 20, line 31, leave out ("unless that institution is") and insert ("provided always that where such person is an inmate of") Page 20, line 35, leave out ("is") and insert ("of") Page 20, line 36, after ("provided") insert ("No sickness or maternity benefit shall be paid in respect of the period of such treatment, but such benefit shall be applied in the provision of surgical or other appliances for the benefit of the person; and so far as not so applied shall be paid to the Insurance Committee towards the general purposes thereof"). Page 21, line 14, after ("infirmary") insert ("or in Scotland to any poorhouse hospital or the sick ward of any poorhouse").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD

May I just say a word in support of Lord Balfour's Amendment. It does seem very wrong that where a man has no dependants and where he comes into a voluntary hospital no payment whatever should be made to the voluntary hospital for the help which is given to him. If the man has dependants I quite see that the insurance money may go fairly to them, but it does seem to me quite unfair that a man who has no dependants should come into a voluntary institution and that the societies, when he conies out of that institution, should give him the money instead of paying it for his maintenance in the institution. Therefore, if seconding the Amendment is needed, I should like humbly to second Lord Balfour's Amendment.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

With regard to what was said just now by Lord Knutsford, I think there is nothing to prevent an insured person, if he chooses, from paying a sum of money, or being allowed to pay a sum of money, to a voluntary institution. I think I tried to explain that in my speech on the Second Reading. But Lord Balfour's remarks, I understand, refer entirely to the rate-paid institutions. The noble Lord will remember that a decision was deliberately come to four years ago, in the Act of 1913, when it was made quite clear that the insurance money towards which an insured person had paid his own money as a contribution was his own money. The matter having been left somewhat obscure by the Act of 1911, it was put beyond doubt by the Act of 1913.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

In favour of the insured person.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

Yes; that the money was his own. I may point out, what the noble Lord knows, that, by law, guardians of the poor have ordinary powers to recover expenses of this description if they believe that there are means available other than those from insurance. The inference, as the noble Lord says, is that there may be sought to be drawable two benefits—one from the rates front which the expenses of the infirmary are defrayed and to the relief and shelter of which sometimes some of these people go, and to which as a right they can go; and the other, the insurance which he and his employer, if he has been an employed person, have paid for years.

Take another example—the case of a man who has been for years a member of a sick benefit society, paying his 2d. or his 6d. a week, and now belongs to what is known as the private side of one of the great friendly societies. I think that it could hardly be said that a man who had saved his money in that way should be mulcted in the way that is suggested. And if that is so, so much the less so, I submit, for one who has had to insure compulsorily. I think that the noble Lord will agree—I believe, in fact, that he stated so—that there are many people who find themselves in infirmaries who are not necessarily ne'er-do-wells. In my experience, and in the experience of my noble friend, Lord Knutsford, there are many cases in which unfortunate people, through no fault of their own, have to take advantage of the aid and shelter of Poor Law infirmaries. Poor Law infirmaries, as many noble Lords will remember, are now magnificent State hospitals in this country. They were the old workhouse infirmaries, and by the Act of Mr. Gaythorne-Hardy, when he was President of the Poor Law Board about fifty odd years ago, he established these State hospitals to which these unfortunate people find their way.

Moreover, I would point out this, in regard to what the noble Lord has said, that if a man is a ne'er-do-well and has been a loafer all his life, he would not have been an employed person, and therefore would not have been an insured person. On these grounds I beg my noble friend not to press the Amendment.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

The noble Viscount has put a number of suppositions. If always all, or even a majority, of them are true it would in all probability go far to justify the action taken. Do I understand that the Insurance Commissioners are satisfied with the present state of circumstances in cities like Glasgow and Edinburgh, especially Glasgow, in regard to which the facts that I have given him are given upon the authority, not of careless casual people, but of those who spend their whole lives in regulating these Poor Law institutions? It is all very well to talk about State infirmaries, but they are not State infirmaries. They are supported out of the rates of the district, and I should like clearly to understand whether the Insurance Commissioners are satisfied that there is discipline enough in this matter, or whether they would be willing to have a conference with those whose case I have endeavoured to present, with a view to seeing whether, in some form of the Act, something cannot be done to get rid of what I can assure the noble Viscount is, all over Scotland, which I know, a very grave scandal.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

I do not know anything about these matters in Scotland, and I think that the utmost I can say is that I will faithfully report to the Insurance Commissioners what the noble Lord has said.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

May I point out that if there were a larger House one might have pressed this matter to a Division and see who takes one's view, but if that were done now the result would be that this stage of the Bill would be postponed, because I am perfectly certain that there are not thirty Peers within the precincts of the House at the moment. I am precluded from taking up the matter on Report, because the noble Viscount has told us that he is going to take Report to-morrow, and by that time I cannot see the Bill printed, to line and page the Amendment. This is the sort of proceeding that is thought good enough for the House of Lords in these times. The thing is an absolute and downright scandal, and until your Lordships assert yourselves, and throw out these Bills, and stop it, and put inconvenience on the other House of Parliament in the same way that they put inconvenience upon us, your Lordships will never be list on et to.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

Do yon withdraw?

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

I would rather that the Amendment was negatived.

On Question, Amendment negatived.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The next Amendment is to adapt to Scottish conditions.

Amendment moved— Page 21, line 14, after ("infirmary") insert ("or in Scotland to any poorhouse hospital or the sick ward of any poorhouse").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause, 20, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 21.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST moved an Amendment in Clause 21.

Amendment moved— Page 21, line 40, leave out ("a") and insert ("the").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 21, as amended, agreed to

Clauses 22 and 23 agreed to.

Clause 24:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The Amendments here are all drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 26, line 30, leave out the second ("in") and insert ("for") Page 27, line 31, leave out ("seaman, marine, or soldier") and insert ("person") Page 27, line 32, after ("person,") insert ("and to be resident in such county or county borough as may be prescribed") Page 27, line 35, leave out ("such seaman, marine or soldier") and insert ("person to whom the said section forty-six applies")—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 24 as amended, agreed to.

Clause 25:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

These also are all drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved—

Page 28, line 34, after ("Force") insert ("or from the Air Force to the Navy or Army") and after ("extend") insert ("and be deemed always to have extended")

Page 28, line 40, at end, insert: In this section the expression 'prescribed' means prescribed by regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners in conjunction with the Air Council."—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question. Amendments agreed to.

Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 26:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The Amendments on Clause 26 are likewise drafting.

Amendments moved Page 29, line 10, leave out ("the Committee shall credit") and insert ("there shall be credited") Page 29, line 11, leave out ("their opinion") and insert ("the opinion of the Committee") Page 29, line 12, leave out ("shall charge") and insert ("the amount so credited shall be charged") Page 29, line 13, leave out ("the amount so credited").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 27 agreed to.

Clause 28:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The next Amendment is intended merely to widen the clause, and to let in other people who may not be necessarily engaged in one particular employment.

Amendment moved— Page 32, line 10, leave out ("in the case of pupil teachers") and insert ("to the conditions prevailing in the employments specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this subsection").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment a greed to.

Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 29:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The Treasury wish to know what is going on with regard to any balance there may be over the stamp account. These three Amendments agree with that matter.

Amendments moved— Page 32, line 17, leave out ("are satisfied") and insert ("satisfy the Treasury") Page 32, line 18, leave out ("them") and insert ("the Commissioners") Page 32, line 27, leave out ("are satisfied") and insert ("satisfy the Treasury"). ( Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 29, as amended agreed to.

Clauses 30 and 31 agreed to.

Clause 32:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The Amendments which I now move are all drafting.

Amendments moved—

Page 33, line 21, leave out ("and") and insert ("or").

Page 34, line 1, after ("(3)") insert: The power to make regulations under the last preceding subsection with respect to the enquiries therein mentioned shall not extend so as to authorise regulations to be made with respect to any such inquiries held in Scotland, but

Page 34, lines 2 and 3, leave out ("as aforesaid").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 32, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 33 to 37 agreed to.

Clause 38:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

These Amendments are all drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 36, line 7, after ("cent") insert ("and that such excess was in whole or in part due to any such cause as aforesaid the amount of any") Page 36, line 10, after ("aforesaid") insert "the amount of that") Page, 36, line 11, after ("and") insert ("the words 'or such part thereof as aforesaid,' whenever these words occur in subsection (3) of the said section, and").— (Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 38, as amended, agreed to

Clause 39 agreed to.

Clause 40:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The Amendments on this clause are all drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 36, line 21, leave out ("this Part of this") and insert ("Part I of the principal"). Page 37, line 1, leave out ("an employee who") and insert ("If an employee") Page 37, line 2, after ("society") insert ("he or any person claiming through him") Page 37, line 3, leave out ("his") and insert ("the") Page 37, line 4, leave out ("he") and insert ("the employee").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 41 to 44 agreed to.

Clause 45:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The Amendment, which I have to move en this clause is purely drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 38, line 31, leave out ("said") and after ("regulations") insert ("made under the said subsection").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 45, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 46:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The Amendment on this clause is the one which I said I would move with regard to what has been said by Lord Sydenham.

Amendment moved— Page 38, line 40, after ("acting") insert ("and to any variations required to secure that no insured person who is suffering from any form of venereal disease shall, on the ground that the disease is or may be duo to misconduct, be deprived of any sickness or disablement benefit to which he would otherwise have been entitled").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 46, as amended, agreed to.

VISCOUNT SANDHURST moved the insertion of a new clause. The noble Viscount said: The 1909 Act reduces by 5s. the sickness and disablement benefits of officers, seamen, marines, and so on, who receive pensions in respect of disablement in the highest degree. The object of this Amendment is to widen its scope so as to include Volunteers and others.

Amendment moved— After Clause 46 insert as a new clause:

".The National Insurance (Part I Amendment) Act, 1917, shall be amended as follows:—

  1. "(1) By the insertion in section one thereof after the word 'marines' and after the word 'soldiers' of the words 'or other persons.'
  2. "(2) By the insertion therein after the words 'to whom section forty-six of the 'National Insurance Act, 1911, applied 'wherever those words occur of the words 'or who was an insured person.'
  3. "(3) By the substitution for the words 'naval or military service,' wherever those words occur of the words 'naval military, or other pensionable service.'"—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 47:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

These are all drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved— Page 39, lines 2 and 3, leave out ("shall be included among the Acts which may be cited as") Page 39, line 4, at end insert ("and this Act may be cited together as the National Insurance (Health) Acts, 1911 to 1918") Page 39, line 6, leave out ("January") and insert ("July") Page 39, line 14, after ("which") insert ("has been amended by any other Act or,").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 47, as amended, agreed to.

First and Second Schedules agreed to.

Third Schedule:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The order of procedure in Scotland differs from that in England. In Scotland the auditor will not himself make a surcharge but report irregularities to the Commissioners, and the accounts cannot be considered until his report is received. Therefore this paragraph is unnecessary.

Amendment moved— Page 43, line 14, leave out paragraph (3).—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Fourth Schedule:

VISCOUNT SANDHURST

The object of the Amendments to this Schedule is merely to bring societies with branches into line with societies without branches.

Amendments moved— Page 44, line 7, after ("society") insert ("or to any two or more other societies") Page 44, line 29, after the second ("to") insert ("members and") Page 44, line 32, leave out ("the seamen marines and soldiers") and insert ("any persons being persons to whom section forty-six of the principal Act applies and").—(Viscount Sandhurst.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Fourth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Fifth Schedule agreed to.

The Report of Amendments to be received to-morrow, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 133.)