§ LORD BERESFORD had the following Question on the Paper—
§ To ask His Majesty's Government if it can be stated how much money representing prize money and accrued interest is now in the hands of the Prize Court; how much prize money has been paid under the direction of the Foreign Office Committee either to Messrs. Schroeder or to other persons having similar claims; and how much money represents enemy property which will, under the words of the 6th Hague Convention as quoted by the President of the Prize Court, be restored to the enemy immediately or subsequently; whether it can be stated how much money has been paid in prize bounties; and out of what fund are prize bounties paid; how many enemy vessels were seized in port here or in British Possessions at the beginning of the war; are such vessels still named "Droits of Admiralty "; if so, is the Crown still entitled to them; can the approximate value of these vessels and their cargoes be stated; and to what fund will the money be applied; and to move a Resolution.
§ The noble and gallant Lord said: My Lords, I have rather a long Question on the Paper, but I will not intrude a long speech on your Lordships, This subject of prize money has evoked great interest among the officers and men of the Fleet. They have had a 643 very dull and weary strain, but have proved of enduring energy and shown readiness of resource splendidly all through the war, while their daring cannot be spoken of too often. But they have not got that reward which everybody looks for after a life of zeal and energy.
§ There have been some remarks made in the Press that the wish for prize money is a sordid wish; that the men ought not to demand it. I do not see why the men should not have this benefit the same as those of any other profession. The commercial classes look for some reward in money and power. All the professional classes do the same; and the politician too. But in this war the only real qualification for promotion, so far as the politicians and other people are concerned, has been failure. I want to ask certain questions. Will the relatives of the men who are killed get some part of the prize money? Will the mercantile marine come in for some part of it?—the patrols, sweepers, and all the men who have done so splendidly for us in the war? Will the Royal Naval Division and the Royal Naval Air Service get any of this money when it is divided? The Secretary of the Admiralty mentioned in another place, in November last, that the appropriation of this fund will not be determined until the end of the war. He gave no reason, and I hope the noble Earl will abrogate that statement this afternoon, or give us some reason why the men should not have this money before the end of the war.
§ I want to ask also whether the promised Prize Bill will enable the State to give the money before the end of the war. There are many points in this Prize Bill of great importance that are outside the reference altogether of the Prize Claims Committee. I wish Lord Desart was in the House, because he could have given us some information about the Prize Claims Committee. When will the Bill be presented? Can the noble Earl give a date? I think a public statement should be made now as to how much prize money there is; how much interest there is on that prize money; whether this interest is invested, and whether the money is under the control of the Admiralty, the Prize Court, or the Foreign Office Committee that was set up?
§
There are several other questions I also want [...]to ask. There is a Mr. Schroeder who was naturalised after the war, for which naturalisation amazing reasons were
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given. He claimed £41,000. I want to know whether he got it, or whether he will get it. I should also like to know whether other persons made claims, and for how much. There are many curious facts connected with this prize money. There seems to be a great difference of opinion in legal circles. Sir Samuel Evans the distinguished President of the Prize Court, had his dictum rejected by the Secret Committee of the Foreign Office, who appear to have the power to overrule the decisions of the Prize Court. I think that both in the "Adessa" and the "Progresso" cases the decision was rejected. With regard to the "Progresso," Sir Samuel Evans in giving judgment made an extraordinary statement. Speaking with regard to Article 3 of the Order in Council of March 15, 1915, he said—
I cannot help thinking that the words must have crept into this Article 3 by mistake. It could not in my opinion have been contemplated that enemy goods could immediately be restored to the person entitled—namely, and enemy alien—or that if sold the proceeds should be restored immediately to an enemy.
What I want to know is, Are these enemy goods, ships, and cargoes coming in under the Prize Court to be restored to the owners after the war? From what the President said it is evidently not clear whether or not that is so. He said that according to his reading he ought to have returned these goods to the owners during the war, but added that there must have been a mistake. The Attorney-General also said that these words in regard to Article 3 must have crept in by mistake. When statements of this sort are made in the Courts is it any wonder if the officers and men of the Fleet are very much amazed and very much in doubt as to the prize money which is their due? We want these mistakes corrected. We want to know how we stand. We want to know how much money there is that should be allocated now, and we want clear and definite reasons given why the men should not get what is their due. As the President of the Court refused to give the property back at once, stating that there was a mistake in the Act, I wish to know whether he will be empowered to give this property back after the war. Another case was the "Odessa." In this the principal partner was a person with a terribly long German name which I will not inflict upon your Lordships. He lived at Hamburg. Will that property be returned to him? Will he be in the same category as Baron Schroeder who made a claim for £41,000?
§ My noble friend will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the prize money now amounts to something like £12,000,000. Dr. Macnamara said that it was impossible ft, state what the amount was, but surely the officers and men of the Fleet should be told approximately what it is. We know that it was something like £7,000,000 a little while ago, but I believe that about £200,000 has been taken front the Prize Court by the Foreign Office Committee. At any rate, that idea is entertained in the Fleet. I hope that it is not true, and that my noble friend will be able to correct it. If it is true, I want to know where the money went to. Was it given to people who are enemies and who made claims, like Baron Schroeder? The Queen Victoria Proclamation made in 1900 was abolished at the beginning of the war, and nothing has been put in its place. That is very hard on the officers and men, and it leaves a great doubt in their minds as to what is to become of the prize money eventually. I do not say that the old system of giving prize money was not a bad one, because under it only cruisers got the money, the rest of the Fleet not receiving any. I believe now that there is to be a scheme by which all the Fleet will share in this enormous sum. That would certainly be more fair, because the destroyers and patrols have done most of the work, even more than the cruisers. It is much fairer that the Fleet generally should share it than that it should go to one portion of the Fleet only.
§ I wish next to ask my noble friend about the prize bounties. Can he tell me how much money has been paid, and out of what fund it is being paid; how many vessels were seized here and in the British Possessions at the beginning of the war? Where does the money which is called droits of Admiralty "really go? Does it go to the Crown through the Prize Court? Will that money, which must be an enormous sum, form part of the prize which is to go eventually to the men, or is the Crown entitled to the whole of it as in the old days? There was another case in which Sir Samuel Evans was puzzled by the wording of the law. That was the case of the "Chile" and the "Gutenfels." In this case the President also called attention to the contradictions of the Sixth Hague Convention, and to Article 3 of the Order in Council of March 15, 1915. I will not detain your Lordships longer. I have asked some definite questions which I hope 646 my noble friend will answer, as he must be quite as well aware as I am of the intense interest taken in the Fleet in this question of prize money.
THE ADDITIONAL PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE EARL OF LYTTON)My Lords, I think that a discussion on questions dealing with matters of policy connected with the Prize Fund had better be reserved until the introduction of the Naval Prize Bill in which the policy of the Government in this matter will be embodied. The noble Lord asked me when the Bill will be introduced. I cannot give him a date; but it is intended to introduce the Bill this session, and it will no doubt come before your Lordships at an early date. When it does, your Lordships' House will be given an opportunity of discussing many of the questions of policy raised by the noble and gallant Lord in his speech, and we shall be prepared to answer them in full detail.
THE EARL OF LYTTONI am tillable to answer that question, but I imagine it will be introduced first in the House of Commons. The noble and gallant Lord has, however, put certain specific questions to me asking for information, and I will endeavour to give hint an answer to those which he has put on the Paper. With regard to the amount of money in the hands of the Prize Court, I can only give the latest figures relating to the amount held by the Central London Prize Court. There are other Prize Courts in other parts of the Empire, and money in them will be available eventually for the Prize Fund when it conies to be distributed, but I do not know how much is at this moment in the hands of these other Courts. Moreover, even if exact information on this point was available, these amounts would be of no value as a guide to the ultimate amount of the Prize Fund which will be available for distribution, and that is presumably what the noble and gallant Lord wants to know.
§ LORD BERESFORDWhy not, may I ask?
THE EARL OF LYTTONBecause that Fund will contain a number of items which will not be available for distribution. It will contain droits of Admiralty which will 647 not go to the Prize Fund, but to the Treasury; and it will contain also a certain number of items which will go neither to the Treasury nor to the Prize Fund but to the owners of ships—I refer to those classes of vessels which are detained, about which an ultimate decision has vet to be made. All those sums are at the present moment in the hands of the various Prize Courts, and partition of those amounts will have to be made before it can be stated what sum will be available as a Prize Fund for distribution. But the figures, according to the latest information I am able to obtain, show that up to the end of March the sums in the hands of the Supreme Court in London amounted to £9,518,226.
§ LORD BERESFORDDoes that include "droits"?
THE EARL OF LYTTONIt, of course, includes droits of Admiralty, which will go eventually to the Exchequer, and some sums, as I have pointed out, which will go neither to the Treasury nor to the Prize Fund. Therefore to this sum of £9,000,000 odd must be added the sum, the exact amount of which I do not know, in the hands of the other Prize Courts of the Empire, and from it will have to be deducted droits of Admiralty and certain other charges which I indicated.
With regard to the second Question on the Paper, I am not quite clear what is meant. There is no Foreign Office Committee which paid out money either to Messrs. Schroeder or to any one else, but I presume that the Prize Claims Committee presided over by Lord Desart is the body to which the noble and gallant Lord refers. This Committee was appointed by the Treasury to consider the claims of third parties in respect to cargoes and other matters on enemy ships. The Committee has made no payments to Messrs. Schroeder at present. The sum of £15,770 18s. 11d. has been paid to British and Allied pledgees and unpaid vendors.' The claimants, before they receive their money, are required to enter into an agreement to take all possible steps to recover the sums paid them from the enemy debtors after the war, and all rights against the enemy owners and purchasers are preserved. Thirdly, the noble and gallant Lord asks me how much money represents enemy property.
§ LORD BERESFORDMy noble friend has not quite cleared up the point about Baron Schroeder. Did Baron Schroeder get money under that claim?
THE EARL OF LYTTONI said that this Committee had paid no money to Baron Schroeder. To return to the third point on the Paper, this information is not available. Even if the total amount in the hands of all the Prize Courts of the Empire were known it would be impossible at this moment to say how much of it is in respect of enemy property which is detained in accordance with the provisions of the Sixth Hague Convention.
The next point is in regard to prize bounty, the figures of which are as follows. The total amount of prize bounty awarded to date is £60,580. The net amount available for distribution after payment of expenses is £55,214. Of this amount £51,650 has been paid to date. Payment of the shares outstanding is being made as the applications are received or the men are traced. Prize bounties are paid from a fund provided by the Treasury out of money voted by Parliament in accordance with Section 44 of the Naval Prize Act, 1864.
Then the noble and gallant Lord asked me certain questions with regard to enemy vessels seized in port at the beginning of the war. Including lighters and dhows, but excluding smaller craft, it is calculated that about 251 enemy vessels were seized in port here or in British Possessions at the beginning of the war. Generally speaking, these vessels have been ordered to be detained under The Hague Convention—that is to say, until after the war. Their ultimate treatment, therefore, is not yet determined. If they had been condemned as droits of the Crown, then the Treasury would be entitled to the amount, and it would not go into the Prize Fund. At this moment they are merely detained.
§ LORD BERESFORDCan the noble Earl tell me about their cargoes? Some were perishable.
THE EARL OF LYTTONThe noble and gallant Lord asks me if I can give him the approximate value of ships or cargoes. That I am unable to do. I am told that this information is not available without a great deal of trouble and intricate calcula- 649 tion. Most of the ships are being employed on Government service, and they may either be returned to the Prize Court, or, in lieu, their value may be paid into the Court. No payment, however, has yet taken place, and it is not possible at the present moment to form an approximate estimate as to the value of these ships and their cargoes. Such of the cargoes as belong to British, Allied, or neutral owners have, of course, been released.
§ LORD BERESFORDI thank my noble friend for the information. With regard to most of the points that I want elucidated—differences of opinion with regard to the legal view of the situation—we shall have an opportunity of clearing them up on the Prize Bill.