§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
§ Clause 2:
§ Powers and duties of Minister of Reconstruction.
§ 2.—(1) It shall be the duty of the Minister of Reconstruction to consider and advise upon the 475 problems which may arise out of the present war and may have to be dealt with upon its termination, and for the purposes aforesaid to institute and conduct such inquiries, prepare such schemes, and make such recommendations as he thinks fit; and the Minister of Reconstruction shall, for the purposes aforesaid, have such powers and duties of any Government Department or authority, which have been conferred by or under any statute, as His Majesty may by Order in Council authorise the Minister to exercise or perform concurrently with, or in consultation with, the Government Department or authority concerned.
§ (2) The Minister of Reconstruction shall in each year present to Parliament a report of such of the schemes prepared and recommendations made by him as he shall deem suitable for publication.
§ (3) Any Order in Council made for the purpose of this Act may be added to, varied, or revoked by a subsequent Order in Council.
§ (4) Provided that no Order in Council under this Act shall be made except in pursuance of a resolution passed by both Houses of Parliament.
§ VISCOUNT CHAPLINMy Lords, I rise to move an Amendment which, owing to the fact that I was not aware that the House was going to meet so early as it did yesterday, I could not move yesterday afternoon. The Amendment I have placed on the Paper is to insert after "problems," in subsection (1) of Clause 2, the words "other than the questions of commercial, industrial, and agricultural policy." Of course, this is an Amendment intended to limit the powers of the Minister of Reconstruction, whoever he may be, if this Bill is ultimately carried into law, which I hope personally it may not be for reasons which I will state almost immediately. I own that I am one of those who think that this notion of creating new Ministries one after the other has gone quite far enough and I feel sure that it is the general opinion, outside Parliament at all events, that we have enough new Ministries already and that no more are desired. It is for that purpose that I move this Amendment.
I know that some people may say—I have heard it said myself—" Oh, but if you move an Amendment of this kind you leave this new Minister with nothing whatever to do." I do not agree with that suggestion. I can think of half a dozen things already, all of them of the utmost importance. There are still the questions of the Army, the Navy, demobilisation after the war, munitions, education, and many other things. Are they nothing? Surely there la ample in those questions alone to engage the attention of the new Ministry. I am the more encouraged in the view I hold because I understand from what happened 476 in the other House in connection with this Bill that the Government escaped defeat only by the very extraordinary position which it occupies on the Front Benches of the two Houses of Parliament. As a matter of fact, this is precisely the same Amendment as one which was moved in the House of Commons. That Amendment was defeated by a majority only of 24, which majority was obtained because there were no fewer than 36 Members at the very least, so I am told, on the Government Bench in another place that evening. Evidently that Division did not express the opinion of the House of Commons apart from the members of the Government, and this inclines me to think that I am justified in moving the same Amendment in this House.
I want to know where this creation of new Ministries is going to stop. At one time the Government were satisfied, when in difficulties, with moving the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the position with regard to which they were assailed. But unfortunately some of the Committees acted with great rapidity and soon presented their Reports; so it became necessary on the part of the Government, when in difficulties, to resort to something more important and to appoint a new Ministry. Of course, a new Ministry takes a good deal longer in getting to work. I do not in the least under-rate the importance of the subjects which have to be considered after the war. But I am not satisfied that this Ministry is necessary, especially if the gentleman who we hear is likely to be its chief is the man who really will be appointed. For instance, take questions relating to commercial policy. I do not see how he is going to carry out the express views of the Government with regard to the arrangements made in the Conference at Paris, and in connection with which I believe fresh and more recent assurances have been given, because this gentleman, Dr. Addison, as I understand, is one of the strongest and most confirmed Free Traders; and it is certain that Resolutions passed at the Paris Conference differ entirely from that particular policy such as it is and has been known in this country in days past.
I do not know that there is any necessity for me to say anything further upon this subject. I entirely agree with the attitude taken up in the House of Commons by the Members who supported this Amendment, and I now submit it with great hope and 477 confidence to your Lordships on this occasion. I am sure that in considering it your Lordships will bear in mind the enormous number of new Ministries that Lave been already created, a number quite unprecedented in the history of this country ever since it has had a Constitutional Government; and I feel more than justified by that fact alone, if there were nothing else, in moving this Amendment and in asking your Lordships to support it.
§
Amendment moved—
Clause 2, page 1, line 10, after ("problems") insert ("other than the questions of commercial, industrial, and agricultural policy ").—(Viscount Chaplin.)
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTMy Lords, yesterday the noble Viscount, when he found that he had missed his chance of moving this Amendment then, uttered a word or two of apology for not having been in his place. May I say that my only regret is that, in addition to very heavy labours which he has undertaken this afternoon with regard to another Bill, the noble Viscount has been obliged to add the moving of this Amendment to the Bill now before the House; though I am sure he knows that I am on this occasoin, as on all others, I hope, at the noble Viscount's service. It is true, as the noble Viscount says, that a number of new Ministries have been created. He called it an unprecedented number; but surely if there ever was an unprecedented state of affairs in this country it is to-day.
The noble Viscount moves to leave out questions of industrial, commercial, and agricultural policy. If he presses his Amendment and carries it. I cannot help remarking that he will take away a great deal of the purpose and effect of the Bill. After all, whatever subject may arise for the consideration of the Minister of Reconstruction, whether it be demobilisation, dealing with the great army of soldiers and the great army of civilians who will require employment when the war is over, or the various trades with their questions of employers and employed, it seems to me that at every turn you come up against industry and commerce. Further, the industries now concentrated in the war are equally concerned with commerce and industry; and the main object of this new Minister is to think out plans—the decisions are not to be taken by the new Minister, but on the responsibility of the 478 Government—to prepare for peace. The policy of the new Minister in regard to various trades is to consult and to take counsel with trade associations and to advise as to readjustment of industries, and so on. So that whatever turn one takes, I respectfully suggest that industry and commerce meet one on every hand. A good deal has been said as to the resentment that may be occasioned and the friction that may be caused in certain Departments. As the noble Viscount knows, a variety of Committees have been reporting to two Committees, first to the Cabinet Committee, and then I think to an unofficial Committee, but there has been no sign of resentment or friction; and it is in some measure owing to the success of those inquiries that it was thought advisable to develop still more the idea and to put a responsible Minister at the head who would have ready access to the Cabinet and could report to them.
It has been said that there is machinery enough, that heads of Departments already exist who could consult with the Prime Minister. That statement is true, and applies to ordinary times; but in these extraordinary times, when the head of every Department is so occupied with business connected with the war—and we know the responsibilities and the immense work of the Prime Minister—it does seem absolutely important that there should be an individual such as this Bill desires to set up to collect information and to make suggestions to the Government. I should not have mentioned the particular gentleman's name had the noble Viscount not done so. Perhaps the House will allow me to do this, because I think it is not improbable that I am the only member of the House who has been thrown into close contact with Dr. Addison. He is, as I have no doubt many of your Lordships know, a member of the medical profession. For a great many years he has been on the staff of one of our largest hospitals, where he was a distinguished lecturer until he took to public life. I have worked with him when he was on the staff of this hospital, and I had a good opportunity of observing his characteristics. Your Lordships will remember that when the country was discussing the Insurance Bill there were very divergent views taken by the medical profession as to the usefulness, value, convenience, and so on, of that measure, and it was my duty, being the head of the administration of one of the hospitals, to 479 see what I could do to help to bring things into light; and I can assure your Lordships that I then had an opportunity of observing that this gentleman of whom I am speaking possessed, in addition to great abilities, qualities of patience and tact and discretion which were very instrumental in our getting a working plan and settling very difficult matters in connection with the National Insurance scheme. So I venture to say that on that knowledge I think the selection that has been made by the Government—if I am correct in supposing it is so—is a very good one. I agree, that it would be quite possible for even the ablest man who went without discretion into these matters easily to upset this or any other scheme. But, where these matters are handled with tact and discretion I do not think there will be anything to fear. I assure the noble Viscount that this matter has had the fullest consideration of His Majesty's Government. It is a matter of first importance in connection with the state of things which will obtain after the war, and I earnestly hope that the noble Viscount will not think it right to press his Amendment.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEI suppose it was almost inevitable that, in reply to my noble friend's Amendment, the noble Viscount opposite should make a Second Reading speech, which indeed is what he has done, in support of the principle of the Bill. With regard to that, perhaps I may be allowed merely to say that though we have not opposed the Second Reading of the Bill formally, yet it is a Bill for the whole principle of which I have never had, and I think a great many of my noble friends here have never had, the smallest affection. The creation of a Ministry for this particular purpose has never commended itself to me, and it has not commended it self to me any more in-the course of the discussion. I have always regarded the creation of a Minister for this purpose as the invention of a sort of cuckoo, if I may say so, who is encouraged to go about and lay eggs in other Departments which will hatch into somewhat voracious birds in the harmless and peaceable nests which, without their presence, would proceed in the ordinary way to bring up their broods. But since it has been decided that there is to be a Minister, there is nothing more to be said on that point. For that reason I trust that my noble friend will not press his Amendment, because the form of inquiry into reconstruction, whether it be, 480 as I should have preferred, the original Committee, or, as it is to be, a separate Department, must, I think, undertake investigation into some of the questions which are covered by my noble friend's Amendment. You cannot say that all commercial and industrial and agricultural matters cannot be made the subject for an inquiry into reconstruction. I think the method is the wrong one. But if an inquiry is to be made, I fear that it must cover at any rate some of those particular questions. I trust, therefore, that my friend will not think it necessary to press his Amendment.
§ VISCOUNT CHAPLINMy noble friend will probably remember that he and I have often met in the hunting field, and in my earlier days I was rather remarkable for the rapidity with which I was able to count my pack when I had gone away with the fox. When I looked at the empty Benches around me—I think I have only two couple and a half with me this evening—it did not take me very long to make up my mind that it would be perfectly useless in the circumstances to go to a Division. I congratulate the Leader of the House on the tactical skill which he always displays in the management of business here and elsewhere, and I think it was never better displayed than when he selected this particular opportunity for taking this Bill on Report. The thing I regret most of all is this, that having made great struggles in this direction on more than one occasion in this House we, must now look forward to yet another Department which will be issuing Orders to the agriculturists of the country on a subject of which I am afraid this gentleman, in spite of all that has been said of him by the noble Viscount, knows nothing whatever himself.
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONI would, in a sentence, congratulate the noble Viscount and the House on his graceful exit from the hunting field—the only occasion on which I ever recollect he has retired from that field of honour.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ LORD MUIR MACKENZIEI move to leave out subsection (4) of Clause 2, and to insert in its place the new subsection as printed on the Paper. I feel some diffidence in attempting to do anything which seems like interfering with the decision which the House arrived at 481 deliberately last night, but I hope the noble Marquess opposite will not think that my Amendment is intended to be at all hostile to what I understand his views to be. I ventured to say last night that I thought that his Amendment was in a form which went too far, and it seems to me that the result of it would be to occasion the loss of the Bill, which I do not imagine he is prepared to do. I think it would have been better if he had not moved his Amendment in a form which the Government could not accept and which the other House undoubtedly would not accept. Therefore I have ventured to put down words which are in a common and well-understood form, and which seem to me to give to the noble Marquess substantially what he requires—that is to say, that Parliament would not depart altogether with control of the manifestations of the proposals under this Bill. I sympathise to a great extent with the view of the noble Marquess where he fears the shadowy monster which seems to have been created by this Bill. On the other hand, the noble Lord in charge of the Bill rather represents the new Minister as a species of Buddha, who will be occupied chiefly in meditation and in contemplating his own superior wisdom. But I do think that the clause as it stands creates a proper case for having this very usual subsection added to it; and if the noble Marquess were disposed to accept it, I cannot help appealing to the Government that they also should accept it and leave the matter in that way.
§
Amendment moved—
Clause 2, page 2, lines 1 to 3, leave out subsection (4) and insert:
(4) An Order in Council under this Act shall be laid before each House of Parliament forthwith, and if an address is presented by either House within the next subsequent forty days on which that House shall have sat praying His Majesty that the Order may be annulled, His Majesty in Council may annul the Order, and it shall thenceforth be void but without prejudice to the validity of anything already done thereunder."—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTMy Lords, the procedure proposed in the Amendment has been adopted in many previous Acts, and provides a reasonable method, I suggest, of meeting the views generally expressed by the majority last night. The objections from a constitutional point of view to proceeding by Resolution in both Houses were stated by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, and I need not repeat them. It is true that the Amendment 482 leaves the Ministry of Reconstruction with wider powers than were left by the Amendment of the noble Marquess which was carried last night, but it also affords to either Houses an unrestricted power of objecting to proposals made in any Order in Council laid on the Table in accordance with the Amendment. It does not make it necessary to find time in the House of Commons for this purpose, since the Order in Council may be annulled on an Address being presented within the specified period in the House of Lords alone. On behalf of the Government I accept the Amendment of the noble and learned Lord.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI understand that the Government are in favour of the noble Lord's Amendment?
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTYes.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI am placed in rather a difficult position. I do not want to take up an unreasonable attitude upon this question, but I must be allowed to take exception to one or two things which were said just now. In the first place, my noble friend on the Back Bench said that if the Bill went forward in the form in which it now stands it would run the risk of shipwreck in the other House of Parliament. I am afraid that my information as to the opinion of the other House of Parliament is not the same as that of my noble and learned friend. My belief is that there is no part of the Bill which would be received with such enthusiasm by another place as the subsection which I induced your Lordships to insert last night. Please do not let noble Lords be under the impression, from anything which has fallen from the noble and learned Lord, that this Bill is popular in the other House. It was viewed with the greatest possible suspicion there. But that is no reason why one should not try to work, as far as one possibly can, in support of the policy of His Majesty's Government. That seems to me a very important consideration. Now I am asked to accept this Amendment, and your Lordships are asked to reverse the decision to that extent which was arrived at last night. I am disposed to suggest to your Lordships that in substance that course should be adopted. I do not think that this subsection is so good as my own, but it does secure a great deal. It secures the power to either Home of Parliament to 483 stop the transfer of powers from one of the Departments to this new Ministry. The noble Viscount who has just sat down said that that would be all right for the House of Lords, though it would not be of any use for the House of Commons.
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTNot quite that.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThe noble Viscount, perhaps, did not express himself with the vulgar vigour of my own phrases, but that is what it came to. I must say I think that is rather hard on the House of Commons. I do not see on the face of it why they should be deprived of this power of differing from the proceeding of the Government in transferring powers. But I will not go further into the matter, because I propose to accept the proposal which is made, subject to this. I desire to draw the attention of the noble and learned Lord to certain words at the end of his Amendment. He says, "His Majesty in Council may annul the Order, and it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything already done thereunder." That is the, usual form in which this particular legislative phrase is generally inserted, but it has a very material and substantial effect in the present case. Parliament is about to separate; there will be a long interval. All that the subsection, as the noble and learned Lord has proposed it, would effect is that when the House reassembles any Order in Council which was required to transfer these powers would be laid upon the Table of both Houses of Parliament, for forty days. But in the meantime, during the Recess, all the powers might have been transferred, all the powers that were required by the most progressive member of the reconstruction policy, and then when your Lordships' House was asked to disagree with it you might disagree but it would I have no effect. All the powers would have been transferred, and the words at the end of the noble and learned Lord's Amend meat would come in, "but without prejudice to the validity of anything already done thereunder." So that if I accepted the words in the form in which he has moved them, I should absolutely defeat the whole policy of the Amendment which your Lordships accepted last night. May we not come to an agreement? I suggest that the words should run in this way, 484 "His Majesty in Council may annul the Order and it shall thenceforth be void, and any transfer of powers authorised by such Order should thenceforth be annulled, but subject to the validity of anything done thereunder." That would save what is really intended to be saved—any action that was taken generally speaking under the effect of the Order; but it would not preserve the transfer of powers, which is exactly the thing I want the. House not to accept. If the noble and learned Lord will allow me to alter his Amendment in that form we shall be able to come to an agreement.
§ LORD MUIR MACKENZIEI am inclined to think that the noble Marquess is right about that, and that there is danger under the words as they stand, which are, as I have already said, in common form. There is a danger that the very thing we want to avoid may take place. I think that the noble Marquess has succeeded in drafting an Amendment that would make the situation work quite equitably, and I should be very glad if the Government would accept it in that form.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYWill you move it in that form?
§ LORD MUIR MACKENZIEYes.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORWith regard to what has passed as to the form the Amendment should take, the words which the noble Marquess (Lord Salisbury) read just now cover the words of the Bill. The words are—and it is the usual form—that, if an Address be passed His Majesty in Council may annul the Order, which shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything already done thereunder. That means that the Order becomes void from the time when His Majesty annuls it after the Address. The words "without prejudice to anything done thereunder" do not, of course, save the transfer in the future; it merely validates any act in the interval that had elapsed between the Order in Council being made and its being annulled in consequence of an Address from one of the Houses of Parliament. I suggest that it would be better to keep the usual form. I do not know whether my noble friend Lord Muir Mackenzie agrees, but it would to my mind exactly express what the noble Marquess stated in his observations.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEMy Lords, the form is quite familiar to all of us who have bad anything to do with this House. It is common form, as has been said, and I have always seen it applied as the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack informs us it will be applied in this instance—that is to say, to the saving of anything; administrative which has been done under the particular Order; and supposing that to be the sole effect of the words as they stand, I have no doubt my noble friend would be quite satisfied. Nobody would suggest that you should try to undo things which had been done by way of legislation, But there is, of course, the other interpretation which both my noble friend the noble Marquess and the noble and learned Lord opposite conceive to be possible; and if that were so, if it meant that the actual transferring, having been done, could not be undone, then I am sure that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would agree that it would entirely nullify the effect of my noble friend's Amendment. But if he assures us that such is not the case, I have no doubt my noble friend would accept it.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYIt is a very hazardous thing to differ from the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, on a point of law, and I should not venture to do so had I not consulted two other noble and learned Lords who are members of this House on the subject. However, if he thinks that it does not make any difference, perhaps for greater caution he will allow us to put in the words.
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONI should be very sorry if the noble Marquess persists in his attitude. On a point of law I trust that he will be willing to take the opinion of the Lord Chancellor. The Amendment proposed by Lord Muir Mackenzie is one to which we secured the assent, though not without trouble, of the Home Secretary, and the Home Secretary will have to use all his powers of persuasion to carry it through the House of Commons. I do not know that he would view with equal favour the Amendment of the noble Marquess. I should therefore much prefer that the Amendment should be carried by your Lordships in the form first moved by the noble and learned Lord behind me, and as subsequently explained by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI quite realise what my noble friend has said, but I venture to think that I should be ill advised to part with the words which I have suggested. The Lord Chancellor has told your Lordships that in his opinion the words that I propose to insert do not make any difference in the sense. At any rate, he will not from his point of view be damaged by inserting the words. Having taken what precautions I can to ascertain the effect of the words, I do not think I can accept the noble Lord's Amendment as it stands and I venture to press my alteration.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy only objection to the change is that the original is a very settled form of words, and if it is altered in one instance it might throw doubt on what was meant in another instance. Will this meet the view of the noble Marquess? That it should be conveyed, when this Bill goes back to the House of Commons, by the Home Secretary, that the House adopted this Amendment simply on the view that its effect should be what has been stated in the words suggested by the noble Marquess. My only objection is that I think it a great pity to break into the established form of words by inserting words which might create doubt in other cases. With regard to the particular case, I certainly have no objection to the words on the merits here, which in my view do exactly the same thing as is intended.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI am placed in an almost hopeless position. I cannot contest a point of law with the Lord Chancellor. I will put this to my noble friend the Leader of the House. He is a member of the Cabinet. Will he give me an absolute pledge, as a member of the Government, that the danger which I foresee if the words are accepted in the form which he wishes will not take place?
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONWhat I am content to do—and I think the noble Marquess will be satisfied—is this. I will represent to the Home Secretary the case that he has put before your Lordships, and I will give an undertaking that, if the danger which the noble Marquess fears is not sufficiently guarded against by the words that already exist in the Amendment, an alteration shall be 487 made in them to carry out the object which the noble Marquess has in view.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYThat is quite sufficient.
§ LORD MUIR MACKENZIEThen I move the Amendment as it stands on the Paper.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Then Standing Order No. XXXIX considered (according to Order), and dispensed with: Bill read 3a, and passed, and returned to the Commons, and to be printed as amended. (No. 97.)