§ THE EARL OF MEATH had the following Question on the Paper—
§ To ask His Majesty's Government whether Captain Mawer, the military representative at the Somerset Appeal Tribunal, was correct, as stated in the Press, in saying, in the case of a shoeing-smith who was badged while working on Government horse-shoes but had ceased to be employed, that there was no Court which could deprive a man of his badge once he had received it, and that thousands of men in the country ought not to be badged, and, if so, whether His Majesty's Government would take steps to prevent men who have left or been discharged from Government employment continuing to wear their badges of exemption from military service.
§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, in this Question I allude to badged men, but I hope I shall not merit the rebuke of His Majesty's Government if I draw attention to another side of the subject—the side of the unbadged men. They are both cognate. In asking this Question I am far from a desire to criticise. I wish as far as I possibly can, in my humble way, to strengthen the hands of His Majesty's Government in making the Military Service Acts really effective. His Majesty's Government and the nation, after many searchings of heart and nearly two years consideration, passed these Acts in order to compel, where necessary, fit men within certain ages to take up work of some kind or another for the State; and I am sure your Lordships must have remarked as I have, that it is impossible to go about 1030 in the streets or to travel by train or tram without seeing numbers of young men who have no sign of being unfit, no badge, and who may be magnificent heroes, but the public cannot tell whether they are heroes or whether they are unfit. It appears to me that large numbers of men are at the present moment taking advantage of this state of affairs. What I say is without any disrespect whatever to the Government, because I think it is wonderful what the Government have clone considering that we were absolutely unprepared for war and that we never considered these questions before. At the same time there are men, I believe large numbers, who ought to be either in munition factories or fighting the common foe. But how are we to know the reason why these men are at home unless there is some general badge which every man should wear who is not fit to fight or to take some part in the prosecution of the war at home, such as the making of munitions or otherwise?
§ I have information—and I am sure your Lordships have also—that badges are obtained in several ways by men who have no right to them whatever. One way is this. An unfit man goes before a recruiting officer and gives him some explanation why he is not in the Army—that he has been overlooked but has desired to enlist, He goes before the medical officer, who, of course, finds him unfit—the man knew he was unfit—and he gets a badge, which he sells for five shillings to another man who ought to be in the Army. Another very common way is that munition workers hang up their overcoats or their coats during the time they are working, and a certain number of badges have been stolen in this way and sold; and I have heard of cases where an assault has been committed to obtain a badge or it has been snatched in a crowd.
§ Would it not be possible to organise some system by which every man who is entitled to one should have a badge? Why should not I be badged? Why should not everybody in your Lordships' House be badged who is not able to do some service to the State? And why should it be necessary for the Police to wait until they are informed that so-and-so ought to be in the Army before action is taken? Why should they not be empowered to stop in the street or anywhere any man who they thought had obtained a badge wrongly and ask for his certificate?
1031§ THE EARL OF DERBYThey are authorised to do that.
THE EARL OF MEATHI am very glad to hear the noble Earl say so. Then I should like to ask him further, Is it systematically done?
§ THE EARL OF DERBYYes.
THE EARL OF MEATHI am pleased to hear it, because my information is that it is done in certain districts only. Do I understand that it is done universally?
§ THE EARL OF DERBYIt is done systematically.
THE EARL OF MEATHBut not universally? Might I ask the noble Earl to consider whether it might be done universally as well, because until it is so done we shall never get hold of all these shirkers. This is an important question, because this war is not going to end until we have put forth every bit of strength there is in the country. We cannot afford to waste a single man. Therefore it is of importance that we should know that every man in the country who is fit to be so is employed in the service of the State. My object is solely to see whether it is not possible to make the Regulations still more stringent, so that in no circumstances whatever will it be possible for a shirker to escape the meshes of the noble Earl the Under-Secretary of State for War, and, not only that, but to escape from public obloquy.
§ THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (THE EARL OF DERBY)My Lords, inquiries have been made with regard to the case mentioned in the noble Earl's Question on the Paper. I am informed that the statements attributed to the military representative at the Somerset Appeal Tribunal are substantially correct, but are, of course, in a condensed form. It is a fact that no Court—in the sense of a Tribunal—can deprive a man of a war service badge issued by the Ministry of Munitions. In the case of a war service badge and certificate being held by a man considered not to be entitled to continue to hold them, machinery exists whereby the military authorities can make representations to the Ministry of Munitions for the withdrawing of that badge and certificate. It should be noted that the badge in itself does not give any immunity from military service. Immunity is secured only from 1032 the rightful holding of a certificate issued in connection with the badge. So that all the cases which the noble Earl mentioned of selling badges and that sort of thing really do not apply, because the holding of a badge without a certificate to go with it is useless. Further inquiries are being made into the particular case quoted. I can assure the noble Earl that we are doing everything we can to prevent any one escaping from the meshes. I very often find with reference to cases sent to me—the noble Earl has sent some, which I am inquiring into—that when we come to inquire into them it turns out, as a matter of fact, that the man has been medically rejected or has been properly badged as being a munition worker.
THE EARL OF MEATHI am glad to hear what the noble Earl says. But I hope he will bear in mind what I have remarked, that unless a systematic arrangement is made by which the Police shall be able to ask for the certificate—and not only be able to do it, but that it should be done—we shall never get hold of all the shirkers.