LORD HARRISMy Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether Territorial officers and men now serving in India are receiving the same pay and allowances as apply in the case of officers and men of the Regular Army serving there. I should like to explain that I should not have troubled your Lordships by putting this Question publicly were it not for the fact that I had been unable to get an answer from the noble Marquess in reply to a private communication. As your Lordships know, quite early in the war a number of Territorial battalions were sent to India. They undertook that service in the most loyal way, at the greatest possible inconvenience to a great many of them. Some weeks ago I saw a letter from one of these Territorials, and I sent an abstract of it to the noble Marquess, but have failed to get an answer. The letter was from a private, and to this effect—
We are treated in every respect as Regulars, except in the matter of pay. We are still on Territorial pay, with many deductions.798 That is capable of the construction that these Territorials are not getting as good pay as the Regulars and I therefore, three weeks ago, put the question to the noble Marquess. But as I faded to get an answer from him I have been compelled to bring the matter forward in your Lordships' House. I have elaborated the Question a little and included in it officers as well as men; and perhaps the noble Marquess will understand that it is put as regards the past as well as the present.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEMy Lords, I am sorry that any delay should have taken place in replying to the noble Lord's question, but it is a more complicated one in some respects than might appear from the simple terms in which it is possible to put it. So far as officers of the Territorial Force are concerned, they receive the same pay and allowances as officers of Regular British units, with he single exception that there is a slight advantage in favour of Territorial officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps. In all other respects the pay and allowances are the same. In the case of the men, the rate of pay of the Territorial is precisely the same as that of the Regular—one shilling a day, The deductions from pay, on which I dare say some of the complaints 799 that the noble Lord has heard are based, are also the same. There is a small deduction under what is known as "consolidated stoppage," and also, in the case of those who are in hospital for minor ailments, a small hospital stoppage. Those are the same both for Territorials and Regulars. The consolidated stoppages amount to four-pence a week. Then there is a messing allowance of threepence a day and a messing deduction also of the value of threepence a day in respect of the articles supplied. That, therefore, amounts merely to a book transaction. There is also a system which it is, perhaps, worth while to mention although it does not directly concern the question of pay. In some units there is a system where, by the vote of a majority, soldiers may make certain messing arrangements with the regimental cooks, and it is possible that those who do not form part of the majority and who may object to the particular arrangement may have made complaints at having a system apparently forced upon them with which they are not entirely in agreement. But that, of course, is not really a Government affair at all. I only mention it as having possibly given ground for some complaint.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEIs that special arrangement peculiar to Territorials?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEI really do not know. But there are certain points on which the Territorial does not come off so well as the Regular, and those I will proceed to mention. In the first place, in the matter of proficiency pay. The Territorial and the Regular are equally eligible for this pay, but by the circumstances of the case the Territorial does not nearly so often become qualified to receive it, and that, of course, makes a difference as between individual and individual in many cases. Another case which works to the detriment of the Territorial is that of what is known as the compulsory family allotment. No wives of Territorials are on the strength of the regiment, whereas, of course, in the Regulars a certain proportion are. Therefore, the Territorial soldier incurs this charge of compulsory allotment for his family to a larger extent than the Regulars do; and in addition to that fact, a far larger proportion of them are married men. The separation allowance, which is a different thing, is payable to the families of both classes alike without difference. 800 Then there is the question of food. That is a matter which, I think, ought to be taken into further consideration. In England Territorials are drawing full service rations, but in India they are fed on the peace scale, which is quite perceptibly lower, and I think it is to that that complaints of the inadequacy of food may be due. Bread on the full ration scale is 1¼ or 1lb. of flour; on the peace ration, which is received in India, it is 1lb. Meat is in either case 1lb. (preserved meat), but in the case of fresh meat it is 1¼lb. in one case and ¾lb. in the other. I cannot help thinking that any complaints which have been made may be due to the fact that it is not considered right to put the Territorials on the peace ration in India.
LORD HARRISI understand that that is a comparison between the Territorial in India and the Territorial at home, and not between the Territorial in India and the Regular in India?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEThat is so. But the Territorial in India who feels that he is not getting quite enough to eat does not make the comparison with the Regulars in India, of whom, of course, there are exceedingly few; he makes it between what he remembers of his experience at home. That is a point which I quite agree demands careful consideration. The noble Lord will see that in the main and in fact, as between Regular troops and Territorials, there is practically no difference, although I have called attention to certain points upon which the Territorial Army find themselves, particularly in the matter of proficiency pay, in a worse condition as individuals in most cases.
§ THE EARL OF SELBORNEMy Lords, I am glad that my noble friend has brought this question forward and I hope that the noble Marquess who has just spoken will give the subject his personal attention. I might mention that the Hampshire Infantry Brigade went with the Wessex Division to India and have been there practically since the beginning of the War. The whole of my county is teeming with the complaints of the Hampshire men contained in the letters written home to their parents, and it was only last week that the chairman of the urban district council of my county town sent me extracts 801 from the letters of twelve different men living in that town and drawn from every class, and every single one of those letters made this complaint, that the writers found themselves much worse fed and less well paid in India than they had been in England. They made the comparison between their treatment in England during the months of August and September and on the voyage to India, and their experiences in India; and all of them asked their parents to send them money because they said that they could not possibly live on their pay and that their rations were not sufficient. They gave cases of men selling many of their accoutrements—of course, I do not wish to defend that for a moment. A.B. sold one of his shirts and a pair of boots because he was hungry and had not enough food. I was myself going to bring this to the attention of the noble Marquess, because I am sure this is accidental and due to some bearing of the regulations which was not foreseen and which I am sure he would be the first man to correct.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEI am much obliged to the noble Earl for having added this personal testimony to what has fallen from the noble Lord opposite. In some respects I am afraid that the Territorials will find that feeding in India is not likely to be quite so good as it is in England. That Indian mutton compares unfavourably with Hampshire Down I am afraid cannot be disputed. But perhaps the noble Earl will tell me privately whether the complaints were in many cases that of an inadequate amount, or whether they mainly bore reference to what was considered the inferior quality of the rations, because that is a matter of importance.
§ THE EARL OF SELBORNEI will send the noble Marquess copies of the letters. The names are taken out, but he may reckon on their bona fides.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, I am glad that the noble Marquess has promised to look into this matter. The complaint, I understand, is this. At some points these Territorial troops come off much less well in India than they did when embodied at home. That ought not to be the case. These men undertook an obligation which they were not bound to assume; they came forward in an admir- 802 able spirit, and I have heard from many quarters that an excellent impression has been created in India by the conduct of the Territorial battalions. The men are very pleased with the experiment, and it would be most unfortunate if its success were marred because they received scanty consideration from the Government on this matter.
§ VISCOUNT MIDLETONWould the noble Marquess mind laying on the Table in tabular form the rates of pay in England and India? The statement which he made of course requires to be followed to be appreciated. I think if we could have the figures in that form it would be more useful.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEI will see whether I can supply them in a form sufficiently clear and coherent to satisfy the noble Viscount's request. I shall be glad to do it if I can.