§ THE EARL OF WICKLOW rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether their attention has been drawn to recent cases in the Irish Courts in which it has been decided that justices, on the application of a rate collector against ratepayers in arrears, are bound, if the application is sustained, to issue a distress warrant directed to the Police for the collection of the rates, and whether His Majesty's Government consider it desirable that under such circumstances the rate collector 1503 should receive poundage upon rates which are collected by the Police, and if not, whether they will take steps to prevent him from doing so; and to move for Papers.
§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, I am afraid it is necessary for me to say a few words in explanation of the Question I have put on the Paper. My object in putting it is to raise the question of rate collectors in Ireland appealing to the Royal Irish Constabulary to collect for them rates which are in arrear. A rate collector in Ireland some of whose ratepayers are in arrear can do one of two things. He can either proceed on his own warrant and levy distress, or he can summon the defaulters and obtain a warrant from the Petty Sessional Court. In Ireland it has been the practice of the magistrates to address these warrants to the rate collector himself, who has then acted as his own bailiff and executed the warrants; but some genius has lately discovered that it is possible to compel the Police to execute that duty. It is a duty which the Police dislike; it is an unpleasant duty, and one, moreover, for which they are not paid, and for which the rate collector is paid. In some cases where application has been made to have warrants directed to the Police, the magistrates have agreed to do so. In one case the Police appealed, and it was held by the Court, very naturally I think, that the Police were obliged to obey the orders of the Bench. In another case the magistrates refused to direct the warrants to the Police, but insisted on directing them to the rate collector, who, in their view, was the proper person to discharge the duty. The rate collector appealed from that decision, and the Court held that the magistrates were obliged, if they were asked to do so, to direct warrants to the Police. That is now the law of the land, and there is no way of getting out of it.
§ We have, therefore, this position of affairs, that the rate collector, having secured all the rates he can easily get in—rates that he gets by return of post—can then sit down and smoke his pipe comfortably while the Police carry out the more onerous part of his duties for him. I do not think it would be very easy to alter the law on the subject, because that 1504 would probably entail an Act of Parliament, but what I suggest to His Majesty's Government is that the Local Government Board might make a regulation to provide that where rates are collected for the rate collector by the Police the rate collector should not receive poundage upon those rates. I think that would have the desired effect. It may possibly be contended that if the rate collectors understand that they are not to get poundage upon rates which they have to collect by distress, it may make them slack in the collection of rates, and that they might not take so much trouble about them as they otherwise would, and that therefore the collection would suffer. But I think that the Local Government Board and the rating authority between them ought to be perfectly competent to decide what rates are recoverable and what are not. The effect of such a regulation as I suggest would be to make a rate collector particularly careful to do his utmost to get the rates in without litigation, and to make full use of the warrant with which he is already provided. I hope His Majesty's Government may see some force in my argument, and I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name.
§ Moved, That there be laid before the House Papers relating to recent cases in the Irish Courts in which it has been decided that justices, on the application of a rate collector against ratepayers in arrears, are bound, if the application is sustained, to issue a distress warrant directed to the Police for the collection of the rates.—(The Earl of Wicklow.)
§ LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERSMy Lords, it is a little difficult to understand quite what point the noble Earl wishes to make. I do not quite understand whether he is condemning the whole system of poundage under which the rate collector is paid a certain percentage on the rates collected, or whether he thinks that poundage payment should be confined to the cases where the rate collector actually collects the rate. The latter is, I think, his point. But surely the noble Earl must see that the cases which give the collector trouble are just the cases which sometimes result in his having to appeal for a warrant and issue a distress. The noble Earl says, "Why does he not act on his own warrant?" It is almost certain in 1505 many districts in Ireland that if the collector were to attempt to distrain on his own warrant he would be met by something in the nature of physical force, and he could not, in fact, carry out his warrant without some Police support. It seems, therefore, that it would be very much better to leave him the discretion of applying to the magistrates for Police support than to throw it entirely on his own shoulders.
Then there is another point. If the collector in the exercise of his discretion appeals for a Police warrant and throws the onus of collection on the Police force, tie defaulter is not infrequently influenced by the fear of the costs which the legal proceedings would involve, and it does not infrequently happen that that is enough to make him pay up. I do not see how the noble Earl can suggest that a rate collector should be deprived of the ordinary and natural Police support which is open to any private individual. Take the collection of rent in a case where the rent is not forthcoming and a default occurs. The private individual has the right of getting a distress warrant and of appealing to the Police to assist him in carrying it out. If a private individual can get that assistance for the collection of private rents, surely it ought to be open to the rate collector, who is collecting public money, to receive similar support. I quite agree that in all those cases where the rate collector can collect the money he should do it, and I do not think there is any reason to suppose that he does not. It is only where he has reason to fear that he will not be able to collect it without the display of civil force that he comes to the Court. The noble Earl will see that it is impossible to introduce the change he suggests unless the whole system of poundage is given up, and I do not think he would go so far as to suggest that. I think, therefore, that the present practice based on the existing state of the law is the only one open to meet this particular case.
THE EARL OF WICKLOWI should like to ask the noble Lord whether he knows of a single instance where the collection of rates has been resisted by physical force in Ireland. One of the points which the noble Lord made is a very strong argument on my side. He 1506 said that the fear of the costs of the Court proceedings sometimes induced defaulting ratepayers to pay up. I think it is a very great hardship, particularly on small ratepayers who owe quite a small sum, that they should be mulcted in costs simply because the rate collector prefers to apply to the Court and have the amount collected by the Police when he could perfectly readily collect the amount himself on his own warrant.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.