HL Deb 19 February 1913 vol 13 cc1473-83

Amendments reported (according to Order).

Clause 3:

Restriction on application of funds for certain political purposes.

3. —(1) The funds of a trade union shall not be applied, either directly or in conjunction with any other trade union, association, or body, or otherwise indirectly, in the furtherance of the political objects to which this section applies (without prejudice to the furtherance of any other political objects), unless the furtherance of those objects has been approved as an object of the union by a resolution for the time being in force passed on a ballot of the members of the union taken in accordance with this Act for the purpose by a majority of the members voting; and where such a resolution is in force, unless rules, to be approved, whether the union is registered or not, by the Registrar of Friendly Societies, are in force providing —

  1. (a) That any payments in the furtherance of those objects are to be made out of a separate fund (in this Act referred to as the political fund of the union), and for the exemption in accordance with this Act of any member of the union from any obligation to contribute to such a fund if he gives notice in accordance with this Act that he objects to contribute; and
  2. (b) That a member who is exempt from the obligation to contribute to the political fund of the union shall not be excluded from any benefits of the union, or placed in any respect either directly or indirectly under any disability or at any disadvantage as compared with other members of the union (except in relation to the control or management of the political fund) by reason of his being so exempt, and that contribution to the political fund of the union shall not be made a condition for admission to the union.

(2) If any member of a trade union alleges that he is aggrieved by a breach of any rule made in pursuance of this section, he may complain to the Registrar of Friendly Societies, and the Registrar of Friendly Societies, after giving the complainant and any representative of the union an opportunity of being heard, may, if he considers that such a breach has been committed, make such order for remedying the breach as he thinks just under the circumstances; and any such order of the Registrar shall be binding and conclusive on all parties without appeal and shall not be removable into any court of law or restrainable by injunction, and on being recorded in the county court, may be enforced as if it had been an order of the county court. In the application of this provision to Scotland the sheriff court shall be substituted for the county court, and "interdict" shall be substituted for "injunction."

(3) The political objects to which this section applies are the expenditure of money—

  1. (a) on the payment of any expenses incurred either directly or indirectly by a candidate or prospective candidate for election to Parliament or to any public office, before, during, or after the election in connexion with his candidature or election; or
  2. (b) on the holding of any meeting or the distribution of any literature or documents in support of any such candidate or prospective candidate; or
  3. (c) on the maintenance of any person who is a member of Parliament or who holds a public office; or
  4. (d) in connection with the registration of electors or the selection of a candidate for Parliament or any public office; or
  5. (e) on the holding of political meetings of any kind, or on the distribution of political literature or political documents of any kind, unless the main purpose of the meetings or of the distribution of the literature or documents is the furtherance of statutory objects within the meaning of this Act; or
  6. (f) on the publication or circulation of any newspaper having any political purpose.

The expression "public office" in this section means the office of member of any county, county borough, district., or parish council, or board of guardians, or of any public body who have power to raise money, either directly or indirectly, by means of a rate.

(4) A resolution under this section approving political objects as an object of the union shall take effect as if it were a rule of the union and may be rescinded in the same manner and subject to the same provisions as such a rule.

(5) The provisions of this Act as to the application of the funds of a union for political purposes shall apply to a union which is in whole or in part an association or combination of other unions as if the individual members of the component unions were the members of that union and not the unions; but nothing in this Act shall prevent any such component million from collecting from any of their members who are not exempt on behalf of the association or combination any contributions to the political fund of the association or combination.

THE EARL OF DUNMORE

The object of this Amendment is to make it clear that paragraph ( ) of subsection (3) will apply to publications which might not be considered newspapers in the ordinary acceptance of the term.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line, 18, after ("newspaper") insert ("or periodical").—(The Earl of Dunmore.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I can only repeat what I said in Committee, that I think there is great difficulty about this Amendment, at any rate in the form in which it stands. Since yesterday I have been in communication with prominent trade union officials, and I can give you this case. The railway servants have a newspaper which is mainly or largely devoted to the furtherance of their own interests, and that newspaper—

THE EARL OF DUNMORE

I hope the noble and learned Viscount will pardon me for interrupting, but this Amendment only deals with periodicals.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

Yes; but I was taking the opportunity of raising the more general question. I think the insertion of the word "periodical" will aggravate the difficulty which arises. I should myself very much prefer to see the Bill without this, because I think it really does make a difficult position more difficult at the present time. The noble Earl moved, on the Committee stage of the Bill— (f) on the publication or circulation of any newspaper having any political purpose. His present Amendment proposes to make the situation worse. It would be very much better if there was such a modification as would make sure that the sole or principal purpose is the furtherance of political objects—something to mitigate what we have here. It is to induce the noble Earl to simplify matters that I have made the observations I have. I cannot think the noble Earl would wish to make a difficult position more difficult, and I think it would be better if we omitted paragraph (f) altogether and left the clause as it originally was.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

Does not the noble and learned Viscount think it would be wiser to put in the words "or periodical"? They do not make any difference in principle. The noble and learned Viscount's observations would be entirely relevant, if I may say so with great respect, to the next Amendment, which is a limiting Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF DUNMORE moved to amend paragraph (f) of subsection (3) so that it would read— (f) on the publication or circulation of any newspaper or periodical having any political purpose unless the main purpose of the news paper or periodical is the furtherance of statutory objects within the meaning of this Act. The noble Earl said: When my Amendment came under discussion yesterday in regard to the publication or circulation of a newspaper having any political purpose the Lord Chancellor made certain observations. He pointed out that it would be very difficult to differentiate between a newspaper having a political purpose and a newspaper which dealt with ordinary trade union matters. It certainly was not desired by my Amendment, which now forms part of the clause, that a trade union should be prevented from publishing a newspaper dealing with ordinary trade union matters. But in view of what the noble and learned Viscount has just said, I should like to point out that this present Amendment proposes to meet the views which he expressed yesterday afternoon as far as I understood them, and I have adopted the language which is to be found in the preceding paragraph—namely, "unless the main purpose" of the newspaper or periodical "is the furtherance of statutory objects within the meaning of this Act."

If the present Amendment is accepted I should like to point out what the effect of this paragraph to which the noble and learned Viscount has objected would be. A trade union would be able to publish any newspaper or periodical, or apply its funds towards the publication of a newspaper or periodical, without any of the restrictions which are laid down in this Bill under Clause 3, if and so long as that newspaper or periodical had for its main purpose the furtherance of statutory objects —that is, the industrial relations between workmen and masters and others concerned in the industry. If, on the other hand, a trade union desires either itself to run a newspaper or to assist some other person in running a newspaper and if it were run for some special purpose, that would not be prevented by this Amendment. All that would happen would be that before doing so it would have to obtain the authority of the members of the trade union in the manner laid down in this Bill. This really is the point of the whole Amendment, that the expenditure on such a newspaper would have to come out of the political fund towards which those members who dissented from the political policy of the trade union would not be compelled to contribute.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 19, after ("purpose") insert ("unless the main purpose of the newspaper or periodical is the furtherance of statutory objects wit bin the meaning of this Act").—(The Earl of Dunmore.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The noble Earl has considerably improved the form in which the matter would stand without his Amendment, but even as it is I think great embarrassment and difficulty would be created. How is anybody to say what is the main purpose of a newspaper or periodical? It would probably give rise to every sort of controversy, and all I can say is that I am grateful to the noble Earl for so far mitigating the situation by substituting his present Amendment for the one he previously proposed. I should like, however, to see this paragraph out altogether. I am sure it will do no good, and win only create difficulty and feeling on the part of trade unions. I have had evidence of that again to-day, and I repeat that in the present situation I think it would be better if the new paragraph were omitted altogether. I still hope that your Lordships will think fit, by general agreement, to omit it, although so far as the noble Earl is concerned the words which he has proposed are words which somewhat soften an otherwise objectionable paragraph.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

I am glad the noble and learned Viscount admits that the words proposed to be inserted by my noble friend are an improvement of the clause. They are proposed with the special object of meeting a criticism which was made in debate, and, as my noble friend pointed out, the particular reference to the "main purpose," to which the noble and learned Viscount referred a moment ago, is taken from the preceding paragraph, for the drafting of which His Majesty's Government are responsible. I want, however, to say one word with regard to what the noble and learned Viscount said as to his desire to get rid of paragraph (f) altogether. I do not say that the wording may not be improved, but surely something in the nature of paragraph (f) is indispensable in this Bill. Unless something in the nature of that paragraph is inserted I would like to ask the noble and learned Viscount whether it would not be possible for a trade union to publish a newspaper advocating Syndicalism of the most pronounced type, and to use in connection with the publication of that newspaper the funds of its contributors, and to do all that without any of the restrictions or safeguards which this Bill provides—I mean in the way of a previous resolution, the ballot, and measures for the protection of dissentients, which are contemplated by this Bill. If that is a conceivable thing, then I say my noble friend is perfectly right in putting in words to cover a contingency of that kind.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR.

In answer to the noble Marquess's question, I think that is so; but I have always thought it best not to attempt to restrain trade unions in these matters. You will not succeed in restraining them, and will only make them seek means of evading any such restriction. Hitherto trade unions have not published newspapers dealing with Syndicalism, and I would rather let them feel that they were not shackled with the fetters of Parliament in a matter of this kind, because as soon as they did feel that they were shackled and fettered in this way they might be tempted to do the very thing that you are proposing to restrain them from doing.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

The noble and learned Viscount did not appreciate my point. It is not that I desire to restrain trade unions front publishing anything they wish to publish; it is to restrain them from applying to such a purpose the funds of members who may object altogether to contribute for the purpose of publishing and circulating a Syndicalist newspaper.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Approval of rules.

4. A ballot for the purposes of this Act shall be taken in accordance with rules of the union to be approved for the purpose, whether the union is registered or not, by the Registrar of Friendly Societies, but the Registrar of Friendly Societies shall not approve any such rules unless he is satisfied that every member has an equal right and, if reasonably possible, a fair opportunity of voting, and that the secrecy of the ballot is properly secured.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I have myself an Amendment to move which comes in at the end of Clause 4, after the word "secured." It is to insert the new subsection that I proposed yesterday. Since yesterday I have been in communication with various officials of the trade unions, and also with the draftsman, and we have found that there are a considerable number of trade union rules which, unless this subsection is put in, will make it absolutely impossible to bring this Bill into operation for a period of years, in some cases two and in some cases three, after the Bill passes. For instance, take the rules of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants. The annual general meeting has only power to amend, rescind, or make rules every three years, unless an alteration is recommended by the Executive Committee in the interim as being urgently required in the interests of the society, in which case the matter is to be brought before the next annual meeting; but no new rules can be made, altered, or rescinded, except by the annual meeting every third year. Then I find that the Plumbers' Association have a rule to a similar effect; and the Derbyshire Miners' Association cannot alter their rules for three years. I could multiply the instances. If the Bill is to do any good and be operative soon, the Amendment which I moved yesterday and which stood over for further consideration is, I suggest to your Lordships, an Amendment which ought to be made. It proceeds not particularly from the trade unions but from the legal advisers of the Government, and particularly from the Registrar of Friendly Societies. In these circumstances I would ask your Lordships to allow it to be added to the Bill.

Amendment moved—

Page 5, line 3, after ("secured") insert as a new subsection: (2) If the Registrar of Friendly Societies is satisfied, and certifies that riles for the purpose of a ballot under this Act or rules made for other purposes of this Act which require approval by the Registrar have been approved by a majority of members of a trade union, whether registered or not, voting for the purpose, or by a majority of delegates of such a trade union voting at a meeting called for the purpose, those rules shall have effect as rules of the union, notwithstanding that the provisions of the rules of the union as to the alteration of rules or the making of new rules have not been complied with."—(The Lord Chancellor.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

By the courtesy of the noble and learned Viscount we have been put in possession of information which was not fully at our command yesterday when we discussed this Amendment. It is perfectly true that there are rules attaching to some societies which would prevent the Bill coming into operation for two or three years, and so far I agree with the noble and learned Viscount. We have no desire to prevent the Bill coming into operation within a reasonable period—in fact, we rather invited the Lord Chancellor yesterday to put the particular point more precisely before us. There are also rules, which the noble and learned Viscount did not mention, which prescribe that these alterations of constitution should not be carried except by a two-thirds majority. I cannot say that I see any objection to such rules as those. They seem to me to be very salutary and proper. The governing consideration which has been brought to our notice since the discussion yesterday is a difficulty in the consistency of the Bill if this Amendment were not carried. It seems when the Bill is read carefully that the resolution which deals with the application of funds for political purposes is to be carried by a bare majority, and it seems to follow that the rules which succeed that resolution and which are the necessary consequence of it if the Bill is to operate should not be more stringently enacted than the rules under which the whole machinery is put in motion. This makes a difficulty which I do not see my way to get over, and although I still hold the opinion I held yesterday I should not offer any opposition to the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6:

Mode of giving effect to exemption from contributions to political fund.

6. Effect may be given to the exemption of members to contribute to the political fund of a union either by a separate levy of contributions to that fund from the members of the union who are not exempt, and in that case the rules shall provide that no moneys of the union other than the amount raised by such separate levy shall be carried to that fund, or by relieving any members who are exempt from the payment of the whole or any part of any periodical contributions required from the members of the union towards the expenses of the union, and in that case the rules shall provide that the relief shall be given as far as possible to all members who are exempt on the occasion of the same periodical payment.

THE EARL OF DUNMORE had an Amendment on the Paper, after the word "that" ["and in that case the rules shall provide that"] to insert "notice in writing shall be given to each member of the union showing separatelythe amount of any periodical contribution which is required from him for the expenses of the union and the amount (if any) which is required from him for the political fund of the union, and that." The noble Earl said: I do not move this Amendment in view of the Lord Chancellor's Amendment which is intended to deal with the same point as that raised by my Amendment. But, with the permission of the House, I propose to make some observations after I have heard what the noble and learned Viscount has to say in moving his Amendment.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I move to add at the end of Clause 6 the words "and for enabling members of the union to know as respects any such periodical contribution whether or not it is intended in whole or in part as a contribution to the political fund of the union." That means that there will be a rule to that effect, and the reason. I am anxious to put the matter in that form is the one which I stated yesterday. I have had the advantage of speaking to a trade union official, and he told me that to give notice to every member is impossible, the reason being that they change their addresses so frequently. The way he gets over that difficulty in practice is that although he does not know their actual addresses, as they are so constantly changing, he knows all the men by sight, and he conveys to them all the information and notifications that are necessary, but not in writing. If a rule is properly framed it can be secured that that is adequately done, and that will get over the difficulty. Owing to the constant migration of trade unionists it is impossible to deal with the matter in the way the noble Earl suggests. For that reason I beg to move in the form of which I have given notice.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 40, after ("payment") insert ("and for enabling members of the union to know as respects any such periodical contribution whether or not it is intended in whole or in part as a contribution to the political fund of the union").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

LORD KENYON

I know many trade unionists who are very anxious for this Amendment, and I should like to ask the noble and learned Viscount whether it will be made absolutely clear to the members of the unions that they are contributing a certain proportion of their contributions to the political fund.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

There will be a rule for enabling members to know whether the contribution is intended in whole or in part as a contribution to the political fund of the union.

LORD KENYON

I understand that they will get that information if they ask for it. But will it be conveyed to them on the contribution card?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The rules will provide for it.

THE EARL OF DUNMORE

While thanking the noble and learned Viscount for trying to meet the point I raised yesterday and which I have raised again to-day in my Amendment, I would point out the exact difference between my Amendment and that which is now proposed. When a trade union adopts certain political objects, I am anxious that each member of the union should be clearly shown how much of the contribution which is demanded of him is required for the general purposes of the trade union, and how much is required for the political fund. The Amendment which is proposed by the noble and learned Viscount would be met if the member of the union is informed that a part of the contribution that is demanded of him is going to be allocated towards political purposes, but he could not tell the exact amount which was going to be so taken. Let us take a concrete instance. Suppose that 3s. 6d. is the amount of the contribution which is going to be required of trade union members. The trade union member would be informed that 3s. 6d. was the total contribution, and that a portion of it was going to be taken for political purposes. Under my original Amendment he would have had the exact figures stated. He would be told that 2s. 6d., let us say, was required for the general purposes of the trade union, and for the political fund. In order to meet the noble and learned Viscount so far as possible, I would venture to suggest an Amendment in substitution for his. My Amendment would read as follows—After the word "payment" at the end of the clause, to insert "and for enabling each member of the union to know as respects any such periodical contribution what portion, if any, of the sum payable by him is a contribution to the political fund of the union." This Amendment casts no aspersions whatever on the conduct of trade union officials, and it is, I think, quite clear that there is no such intention. It is purely a business matter. The scheme of the Bill is that the political fund shall be a separate fund, and surely it is more businesslike that the contributions which are demanded from the trade union members should be separated, as to whether they were required for the ordinary trade union purposes or whether they were required for the political fund.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I think the noble Earl has met this case very fairly. I quite appreciate his point. It is in no way inconsistent with my criticism, and I am quite content to take the Amendment in the form which he now proposes. It was my object to have a rule which would avoid the necessity of sending round to each individual member, and the noble Earl meets that difficulty. I will accept the Amendment, therefore, in the form in which he puts it, and withdraw my own form.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment moved— Clause 6, page 5, line 40, after ("payment") insert ("and for enabling each member of the union to know as respects any such periodical contribution what portion, if any, of the sum payable by him is a contribution to the political fund of the union.")—(The, Earl of Dunmore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule: