HL Deb 19 February 1913 vol 13 cc1484-92

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.

Clause 4:

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 2, leave out ("persons") and insert ("person").—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5:

Amendments moved— Page 3, line 35, after ("record") insert ("or in Scotland before the Court of Session") Page 3, line 38, after ("Court") insert ("or in Scotland to the auditor of accounts in the Court of Session").—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Clause 7:

Pilotage Orders.

7.—(l) The Board of Trade may, by Order made under this Act (in this Act referred to as a Pilotage Order)—

  1. (a) make such rearrangement of pilotage districts and pilotage authorities as they think necessary or expedient; and
  2. (b) establish new pilotage districts and new pilotage authorities and abolish existing pilotage districts and existing pilotage authorities in cases where it appears to the Board necessary or expedient; and
  3. (c) define the limits of pilotage districts, distinguishing as respects any pilotage district in part of which pilotage is compulsory and in part of which pilotage is not compulsory, the part of the district in which pilotage is compulsory; and
  4. (d) provide for the incorporation of any pilotage authority, and make such alteration in the constitution of any pilotage authority with reference to their powers and duties as pilotage authority, and such provisions as to the appointment of committees (including, if it is thought fit, persons not members of the authority), and as to the relations between the authority and the committee, as the Board think necessary or expedient; and
  5. (e) empower a pilotage authority to delegate to a committee thereof any of its powers and, duties, and provide if it seems necessary or desirable that the decisions of the committee on questions so delegated shall not require confirmation by the pilotage authority; and
  6. (f) make such provision for the direct representation of pilots and shipowners on any pilotage authority or committee of a pilotage authority as the Board think necessary or expedient; and
  7. (g) in cases where a pilotage authority have powers and duties as to other matters as well as pilotage, provide for their accounts as pilotage authority being kept separate from their accounts in relation to other matters; and
  8. (h) provide that pilotage shall be compulsory in any area where it has previously not been compulsory; and
  9. (i) authorise, where it appears expedient, any pilotage authority to make byelaws providing for the grant of certificates (in this Act referred to as deep sea certificates) certifying that persons are qualified to act as pilots of ships for any part of the sea or channels outside the district of any pilotage authority, so, however, that a pilot holding such a certificate shall not be entitled to supersede any other person as pilot of a ship; and
  10. (j) provide that any Act (other than this Act), order, charter, custom, byelaw, regulation, or provision shall, so far as it relates to pilotage, cease to have effect within any pilotage district or as respects any pilotage authority, but may re-enact the whole or any part thereof so far as is not inconsistent with the provisions of this Act; and
    11. 1486
  11. (k) provide for compensation being paid to any pilots for any loss or damage which may be incurred by them in consequence of any Order abolishing or rearranging any pilotage districts; and
  12. (l) make any provisions which appear necessary or expedient for the purpose of giving full effect to the Order.

(2) Provision shall be made by Pilotage Order for the direct representation of pilots either on the pilotage authority or on the committee of the pilotage authority of any district where there are not less than six licensed pilots if a majority of the pilots licensed for the district signify in writing to the Board of Trade that they desire such representation, and, where such provision is made, provision shall also be made for the representation of shipowners on the authority or committee, as the case may be.

(3) A Pilotage Order establishing a pilotage authority for any pilotage, district shall provide for the representation on the pilotage authority of any dock or harbour authority having jurisdiction within the district which was represented on the pilotage authority for the district at the time of the passing of this Act, and which desires to be so represented.

(4) A Pilotage Order shall not be made by the Board of Trade except—

  1. (a) for any of the purposes of Part I. of this Act; or
  2. (b) on the application in writing of any person interested in the pilotage of any pilotage district or in the operation of the laws relating to pilotage in that district or the administration of those laws.

(5) A Pilotage Order shall require confirmation by Parliament—

  1. (a) if it is an Order made for any of the purposes of Part I. of this Act; and
  2. (b) if, whatever the purpose for which it is made, a petition is presented to the Board of Trade against the Order by any person appearing to the Board of Trade to be interested in the administration of pilotage in the district within six weeks after the Order is published and the petition is not withdrawn.

(6) A Pilotage Order which does not require confirmation by Parliament shall have effect as if enacted in this Act.

(7) The provisions contained in the First Schedule to this Act shall have effect with respect to Pilotage Orders.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 23, leave out ("they") and insert ("the Board").—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

I beg to move the Amendment to which I referred yesterday, in paragraph (h) of subsection (1) of Clause 7, to insert, after "compulsory," the words "or provide that pilotage shall be non-compulsory in any area where it has been compulsory." This simply restores paragraph (h) to what it was when it was introduced by the Board of Trade, and gives the Board of Trade full powers of dealing with this matter in all districts. This clause gives the Board of Trade very great powers, but for some reason which I do not understand power to alter a compulsory pilotage district or any part of it into a non-compulsory pilotage district appears to be reserved. There surely must be cases—in fact, I know of one which I mentioned to the House yesterday—in which it would be very desirable that some alteration should be made, or at any rate that the Board of Trade should be empowered to make such alteration if after inquiry at which all parties were heard it was thought necessary to do so. I mentioned yesterday the case of the Bristol district, where there is considerable unfairness in the case of ships bound to the port of Bristol as against ships going to other ports in the Channel but passing through absolutely the same pilotage area. I would ask whether it is not possible that the Board of Trade, who have these wide powers, should have this power added. Even if the words I propose are not inserted in the Bill I think the matter does require consideration, and what I really do not understand is why these words were left out in the Standing Committee in the House of Commons.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 18, after ("compulsory") insert ("or provide t hat pilotage shall be non-compulsory in any area where it has been compulsory").—(Viscount St. Aldwyn.)

LORD INCHCAPE

I should like to associate myself with what the noble Viscount has said with regard to the disability under which the Board of Trade propose to bring themselves by this clause. It was carried, I believe, in Committee against the Government by a majority of 24 to 17; but I think it is most desirable that the Board of Trade should not bring themselves under this disability. As the noble Viscount has said, there may be many cases in which it may be advisable to make a compulsory area a non-compulsory area, but if this clause stands as it is in the Bill that will be found impossible. The fact is that compulsory pilotage and pilotage generally is a relic of the past. It was found to be necessary when the bulk of the trade of the world was done by sailing ships. But now that it is done by steamers the standard of capacity and skill on the part of captains and officers has very greatly increased, and I have no doubt that within the next few years the pilotage boards will find it desirable to make considerable variations in the compulsory areas. I would certainly urge His Majesty's Government to accept the proposal of the noble Viscount.

THE EARL OF GRANARD

The noble Viscount is correct in saying that in the Bill as originally introduced there were similar words to those which he now proposes to put in, with the exception that there was a compensation clause at the end of it. The history of this clause is this. We were defeated in Standing Committee by 24 to 17, and we were also defeated in the House. It was moved again on Report stage by Sir W. H. Davies, one of the Members for Bristol, and it was defeated by 137 to 51. Therefore this particular Amendment has been before the House of Commons on two occasions, and has been rejected both times. With regard to Bristol, I am quite aware that ships going through the Bristol Channel to ports other than Bristol do not have to carry a pilot, and that the only compulsory area is the area actually around Bristol. The noble Viscount is, of course, aware that the present pilotage authority at Bristol is the Bristol Corporation, and in their evidence before the Departmental Committee they were strongly in favour of the retention of compulsory pilotage so far as regards the port of Bristol.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

A small area.

THE EARL OF GRANARD

The area covered by the Bill.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

No, excuse me; they desired to alter the area so as to make it a fair area for the port of Bristol.

THE EARL OF GRANARD

I am correct in saying that they supported compulsory pilotage as regards a certain portion of the port.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

Yes, as regards a certain portion.

THE EARL OF GRANARD

The view of the Government is this. The Amendment having been beaten twice in the House of Commons we are not particularly anxious to incorporate it again in the Bill, and I, of course, would much rather not accept the Amendment. If the noble Viscount presses it very strongly, however, I will assent to it, but only on the understanding that he will allow me to add the compensation provision which existed in the Bill when we originally introduced it.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

I shall be happy to agree to what the noble Earl proposes, because I think it would be advisable that the House of Commons should have another opportunity of expressing its opinion on the matter.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

The noble Earl has handed me a new provision which I think should go in as paragraph (m) at the end of the subsection.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 40, at end insert "(m) provide, if it appears just, for compensation being paid to any pilots for any loss or damage which may be incurred by them in consequence of the Order; and".—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8:

Amendments moved— Page 7, line 1, at the beginning of the line insert ("until otherwise provided by Pilotage Order made under this Act") Page 7, line 3, leave out from the first ("district") to ("and") in line 4. Page 7, line 6, leave out from ("authority") to the end of the subsection.—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 9 and 10 agreed to.

Clause 11:

Amendments moved— Page 7, lines 39 and 37, leave out ("within the meaning of this section") Page 7, line 40 and page 8, line 1, leave out ("within the meaning of this section"). Page 8, line 15, leave out ("section") and insert ("Act").—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 12:

Amendments moved— Page 9, line 18, leave out ("port") Page 9, line 31, after ("such") insert ("classes of").—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 13 and 14 agreed to.

Clause 15:

Liability of owner or master in the ease of a vessel under pilotage.

15.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in any public or local Act, the owner or master of a vessel navigating under circumstances in which pilotage is compulsory shall be answerable for any loss or damage caused by the vessel or by any fault of the navigation of the vessel in the same manner as he would if pilotage were not compulsory.

(2) This section shall not take effect until the first day of January, nineteen hundred and eighteen, or such earlier date as His Majesty may fix by Order in Council, certifying that it is necessary to bring the section into operation in order to enable His Majesty to comply with an international convention.

(3) As from the date of the coming into operation of this section, section six hundred and thirty-three of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, shall cease to have effect.

LORD INCHCAPE

Clause 15 makes a very serious change in the law. Under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, Section 633, an owner or master of a ship is not answerable to any person whatever for any loss or damage occasioned by the incapacity of any qualified pilot acting in charge of that ship within any district where the employment of a qualified pilot is compulsory by law. This protection of the shipowner is an old one, and it is based on what is believed to be the universally recognised principle of Common Law. The Bill now alters this, and throws the responsibility on the shipowner notwithstanding the fact that the shipowner is compelled to take a pilot put on board by some port authority. The shipowner is held responsible for all the damage that that pilot may do. This was not opposed in the House of Commons because we had an assurance that it would help the Government to secure a much desired international agreement as to the liability of shipowners. I would like to say to the noble Earl in charge of this Bill that I am glad to have his assurance that the President of the Board of Trade and His Majesty's Government will do their utmost to secure an international agreement which will be fair to the shipowners of this country, and, further, that they will do all in their power to secure the ratification of that agreement by the House of Commons.

THE EARL OF GRANARD

I do not think it is necessary for me to say anything more on this subject. I went into it very fully last night, and, as t he noble Lord very justly says, the matter is going to be submitted to an international conference in the autumn and the interests of the shipowners of this country will be safeguarded.

Clause 15 agreed to.

Clauses 16 to 27 agreed to.

Clause 28:

Amendments moved— Page 19, line 23, leave out from ("final") to the end of the subsection. Page 20, line 3, after ("fees") insert ("In the application of this section to Scotland references to the Court of Session shall be substituted for references to the High Court").—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 29 to 34 agreed to.

Clause 35:

Amendment moved— Page 23, line 18, after ("come") insert ("in").—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 35, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 36 to 40 agreed to.

Clause 41:

Amendments moved— Page 24, line 31, after ("district") insert ("or a master or mate holding a pilotage certificate for that district") Page 24, line 32, leave out from ("exhibited") to ("and") in line 33 Page 24, line 35, leave out from ("pounds") to the end of the clause.—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 41, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 42 agreed to.

Clause 43:

Amendment moved— Page 25, lines 14 and 15, leave out ("the usual signal for a pilot") and insert ("a pilot signal").—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 44 to 57 agreed to.

Clause 58:

Limit on penalty of bond given by pilot.

58. The penalty of a bond given by a pilot for the purpose of the provisions of this Act limiting pilots' liability shall not exceed one hundred pounds.

THE EARL OF GRANARD

This Amendment is consequential on the Amendment made in Clause 17.

Amendment moved— Page 31, leave out clause 58.—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 59 agreed to.

Clause 60:

Amendment moved— Page 31, line 27, after ("Order") insert ("or in the case of a byelaw by byelaw made").—(The Earl of Granard.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 60, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Amendments reported: Bill read 3a (with the Amendments), and passed, and returned to the Commons.