HL Deb 18 July 1911 vol 9 cc539-44

House in Committee (according to Order).

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Account to be kept by county council.

1. In fixing the rent to be paid for any small holding purchased by a county council and provided by the council under the Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1908, a county council shall determine the proportion of such rent which is attributable to the sinking fund intended to recoup to the county council the cost of the acquisition of the land and of the adaptation thereof as a small holding, and shall keep a separate account of all such part of the sums received on account of rent as are so attributable (in this Act referred to as "the recoupment account"); and the tenant of a small holding shall be permitted, at all reasonable times, without payment, to inspect, by himself or by any person authorised by him in writing, the recoupment account relating to the small holding of which he is the tenant.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I move, after the word "rent" ["a county council shall determine the proportion of such rent"], to insert the words "if any." This is really only a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 8, after ("rent") insert ("if any").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

In the next line I move to leave out the words "sinking fund" and to insert "instalment of principal." The words "instalment of principal" are taken from the Act of 1908.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 9, leave out ("sinking fund") and insert ("instalment of principal").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I next propose to leave out the words "of a small holding" ["(in this Act referred to as 'the recoupment account'); and the tenant of a small holding"]. The words are not required here and are mere repetition.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line l4, leave out ("of a smallholding").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2:

Rights of tenant of small holding.

2.—(1) If the county council gives to the, tenant of a small holding notice to quit, the county council shall repay to such tenant all sums paid by him in respect of the holding which have been credited to the recoupment account.

(2) The tenant of a small holding may at any time during his tenancy give to the county council six months' notice in writing of his desire to purchase such holding (in this Act referred to as a "notice to purchase"), and if within such period the tenant pays to the council the difference between the total amount of the sums paid by him in respect of such small holding and credited to the recoupment account and the total amount necessary to recoup to the county council the cost of the acquisition of the said land and its adaptation us a small holding, the council shall transfer the laud to the tenant in fee simple.

(3) When the total amount of the sums paid by a tenant and credited to the recoupment account are equal to the total sum necessary to recoup to the county council the total cost of the acquisition of the land leased to such tenant and the adaptation thereof as a small holding, the county council shall transfer such laud to the tenant in fee simple.

(4) If a tenant who has acquired a right under this Act dies during the tenancy, the benefit thereof shall survive as personal property to his legal personal representatives, who shall be entitled to exercise the right which such tenant might have exercised if they give notice of their intention and take any other steps necessary within three months after the death of the tenant, and not otherwise.

(5) Any difference which arises under the provisions of this Act shall in default of agreement be determined by arbitration.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I move to leave out subsection (1). My reason for proposing to omit these words is that I think as they stand they would be too much in favour of the tenant. For instance, a tenant might wish to leave his holding and might set to work deliberately to deteriorate it, and then if the county council gave him notice he would be entitled to receive back the sums which he had paid to the recoupment account. I think this would be unfair on the county council and, moreover, I think it would be unfair to the successor of this tenant, because the successor would have a much shorter time to run, yet he would have to repay the whole of the loan in the smaller number of years, it is for that reason I propose to leave out these words.

Amendment moved— Page 1, leave out lines 19 to 22 inclusive.—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

The next Amendment is at the commencement of subsection (2), to leave out the words "of a small holding." These words are not necessary.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 23, leave out ("of a small holding").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

My next Amendment is to leave out, for exactly the same reason, the words "in respect of such small holding."

Amendment moved— Page 2, lines 3 and 4, leave out ("in respect of such small holding").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

My next Amendment, is to leave out the whole of subsection (4). My reason for proposing this Amendment is that this matter really appeal's to me to be one which is personal to the tenant himself. If he has been called upon to repay instalments of principal, I think it is quite fair if he sees tit to pay the remaining instalments that he should be able to become the proprietor of the property. If that is to be a right, however, which he is to be able to pass on, I think it might involve some complication and might be rather unfair to the county council. I am particularly anxious to meet the case of what I think is an undoubted hardship to a tenant who is himself called upon to pay instalments of principal, and I think it should be in his power at any time to pay up the instalments and become the proprietor of the property. But I think it is questionable whether you ought to extend that benefit so as to enable this to become a right which he can leave to his representatives. It does not seem unfair at first sight that a man should be able to leave this to his representatives, but I think in all the circumstances of the case it is perhaps better that the tenant's right should be limited to himself.

Amendment moved— Page 2, lines 15 to 21, leave out subsection (4).—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

Title:

An Act to provide for the acquisition by tenants of small holdings in respect of which a rent in excess of the gross annual value is received by county councils.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

moved to leave out "a" and to insert "the."

Amendment moved— In the Title, line 2, leave out ("a") and insert ("the").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I move to leave out the words "in excess of the gross annual value is," and to insert the words "includes instalments of capital expenditure." The noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture took exception to the words "in excess of the gross annual value." I thought there was something in his objection, and therefore I move this Amendment.

Amendment moved— In the Title, lines 2 and 3, leave out ("in excess of the gross annual value is") and insert ("includes instalments of capital expenditure").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Title, as amended, agreed to.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

The Question is, That I report this Bill with Amendments to the House.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

May I on that ask a question of the noble Earl who is promoting this Bill? The first subsection of Clause 2 provides that— If the county council gives to the tenant of a small holding notice to quit, the county council shall repay to such tenant all sums paid by him in respect of the holding which have been credited to the recoupment account. That, of course, would be perfectly fair if the notice was given without any default on the part of the tenant.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

That subsection has been struck out.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

Perhaps I may ask the question all the same. Would any fund belonging to the tenant under this Bill be liable for any default of the tenant in his tenancy, because I think it ought to be. Of course, a county council may have to get rid of a tenant for bad farming, or for some breach of covenant, and in that case surely the county council ought to be able to obtain compensation from any fund to which the tenant may be entitled.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I apprehend, in the ease which the noble Viscount has mentioned, that the general security which the county council have they would have under the existing law. That does not touch this matter. With regard to this particular subsection, I gave reasons just now to the House why I thought it was desirable to leave it out. It was really for the very reason which the noble Viscount has suggested—namely, that there might be tenants who would deteriorate their holdings with the avowed object of getting notice and being turned out, and then upon that receiving the payments which they had made to the recoupment account.

The Report of Amendments to be received on Thursday next, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 142.)