§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Wolverhampton.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly.
§ [THE EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:
§
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE had two Amendments on the Paper to Clause 1, which ran—
1. The provisions of section seventeen of the Education Act, 1902, requiring that all matters relating to the exercise by a local education authority or council having powers under that Act of their powers under that Act shall stand referred to the education committee constituted under that section, and enabling the local education authority or council to delegate to the education committee so constituted any of their powers under that Act, shall apply not only with respect to the powers conferred on the local education authority or council under that Act, but also to any powers connected with education conferred on the authority or council under any other Act, except the power of raising a rate or borrowing money.
§ The first Amendment proposed to insert after the word "conferred" ["connected with education conferred"] the words "by or under any other Act." The noble Earl said that their Lordships would have noted that his Amendments had been circulated in two different forms. The second form 22 was a result, he understood, of negotiations with His Majesty's Government. Therefore, unless any noble Lord desired an explanation, he did not propose to speak in support of the Amendments.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 1, line 14, after the word 'conferred,' to insert the words 'by or under any other Act."'—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTON) accepted the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD BELPER moved to insert, after the word "Act" at the end of the clause the words "scheme or order."
§
Amendment moved—
In line 15, after the word 'Act,' to insert the words 'scheme or order.'"—(Lord Belper.)
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTON accepted the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE moved to leave out at the end of the clause the words "under any other Act" and to insert, "expressly as a local education authority or as a council having powers under the Education Act, 1902."
§
Amendment moved—
In page 1, line 15, to leave out the words 'under any other Act,' and to insert the words 'expressly as a local education authority or as a council having powers under the Education Act, 1902.'"—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTON accepted the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 2 and 3 agreed to.
§ Clause 4:
§
LORD BELPER had several Amendments on the Paper to Clause 4 which ran—
4. Where with a view to following the profession of teacher a person has, in pursuance of regulations made by the Board of Education, entered into an undertaking that he will, in consideration of any grant made by the Board in respect of his maintenance, education, and training, complete the
23
course of education or training specified in the undertaking, and will subsequently follow the profession of teacher in the manner and for the period specified in the undertaking, and in the event of failure to do so will repay to the Board such proportion of the grants made by the Board as is specified in the undertaking, the undertaking shall be binding on him notwithstanding that he was an infant at the time when the undertaking was given, and any sums repayable in accordance with the undertaking shall be recoverable as debts to the Crown.
The Amendments were to insert in various places in the clause the words "or any local education authority." The noble Lord explained that this clause was originally brought in by the Board of Education in order to enforce their contracts with regard to persons in training colleges where contracts had been entered into by persons who were legally infants. It struck a great many people that what was desirable for a Department to enable them to enforce their contracts was also desirable in the case of a local authority to enable them to enforce contracts with regard to their teachers in respect to their payments or terms of office. He understood there was some objection to this on the part of the Board. He did not exactly know what the point was as to which they objected, but he would be glad to hear what their objection was to the Amendment, and then at a later stage he would communicate with those who were responsible for this Amendment—for it was moved at the suggestion of the Education Committee of the County Councils Association—to see whether they wished to press it or not. But at all events there seemed to be a prima facie case that what was good law for one authority was good for another. He begged to move his first Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 2, line 11, after the word 'education,' to insert the words 'or any local education autbority.'"—(Lord Belper.)
§ *VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTON said the Amendment dealt with a difficulty which had arisen with reference to the position of students who went into training colleges. A great part of the cost of those training colleges was defrayed by the State and some by local subscriptions; but he was putting it broadly when he said that three-quarters of the capital cost of all training colleges now built and five-sixths of the maintenance expenses were defrayed from funds provided by the Board of Education. The difficulty that had arisen was that the great bulk of the students when they came in to 24 the colleges, were minors, and therefore no obligation undertaken by them at present would be legally enforcible. If they resisted the obligation which they undertook that they would devote themselves to the teaching profession or pay part of the expenses which had been incurred, it could not be enforced. If, as was suggested by the Amendment, this power was given also to the local education authority it would amount to a limitation of the area of their employment. If the authority was exercised by the Board of Education the obligation which was placed upon the students was binding and could be enforced by the Board, but they would be at liberty to accept employment in any part of the country where their services might be required. If it was enforced by a local authority, its own teachers and students would be obliged, under the noble Lord's Amendment, to serve in the particular area of the authority, and possibly without any limit of time. Under the Education Board's indenture there was a limit that they must serve the public for at least, he thought, seven out of ten years. But there was no obligation in this Amendment fixing either the locality or the time. Therefore this might be binding them for their lives to the local education authority, who were under no correlative obligation to provide employment in every case, and it would, in the opinion of the Board of Education, be very detrimental to the best interests both of education and of the administration of a public fund. He understood the noble Lord would reconsider this case, and he (Viscount Wolverhampton) would be happy to communicate with the Department in the interval, and then if the noble Lord was not convinced the question could be raised at some subsequent stage.
§ LORD BELPER said he understood that the objection of the noble Viscount was that if this Amendment was carried it would bind, or be able to bind, those young people under a particular education authority for all their lives. Certainly he bad no knowledge that that was the intention in moving the Amendment, but obviously teachers could make a contract for a short period with an education authority, and it seemed only reasonable that such an authority should be able to enforce a contract with a minor in the same way that the Education Board were able to enforce a contract with regard to any person in a training college. But before a later period of the Bill he 25 would take the opportunity of consulting those who had suggested this Amendment, and if they wished to press it further he would put it down at a future stage.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ LORD BELPER'S other Amendments, being consequential, were not moved.
§ Clause 4 agreed to.
§ Clause 5 agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE moved the insertion of a new clause after Clause 5.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 5 to insert the following new clause:
'In any legal proceedings by a local education authority, the production of a certificate, purporting to be signed by a duly qualified practitioner approved by the Board of Education for the purposes of subsection three of section one of the Elementary Education (Defective and Epileptic Children) Act, 1899, to the effect that a child is defective or epileptic within the meaning of that section, shall be sufficient evidence of the facts therein stated, unless the parent or guardian of the child referred to in the certificate requires the medical practitioner to be called as a witness; but it shall be lawful for the parent or guardian to give evidence in proof that the certificate is incorrect.'"—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTON accepted the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Remaining Clause agreed to.
§ Standing Committee negatived: The report of Amendments to be received Tomorrow, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 179.)