HL Deb 16 September 1909 vol 2 cc1234-41

Amendments reported (according to order).

*LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL, having moved drafting Amendments to Clause 2 (Establishment of Trade Boards for trades to which Act applies), which were agreed to, proposed an Amendment to Clause 5 (Order giving obligatory effect to minimum rates of wages), subsection (4), to meet the criticism of the Marquess of Salisbury during the Committee proceedings. The general effect of the Bill was that every rate which was fixed by a Trade Board had to go to the Board of Trade for confirmation, but subsection (4) of Clause 5 enabled the Board of Trade to dispense with that process when they thought desirable. What would happen then would be that after the expiry of six months the rate would automatically come as a compulsory rate into force. The Government thought then, and still thought, that that was an extremely useful provision, but the noble Marquess regarded it as the giving of a blank cheque by the Board of Trade. The noble Marquess pointed out that though by the concluding words of the subsection the Board of Trade had power to recover the right of postponing the compulsory operation of the rate, yet they had not the right of postponing a compulsory rate in any particular case—they could only do so generally. To meet that criticism, and after consultation with the noble Marquess, it was proposed to add the following words to the subsection:—"Unless in any particular case the Board of Trade, on the application of any person interested, direct to the contrary." These words would enable the Board of Trade to postpone the compulsory operation of any particular rate if representations were made to them by anybody interested and connected with the trade that they might be injured by that rate. In that way, they thought they would have all the advantage of allowing the trade to manage its own affairs if it was capable of doing so, and, at the same time, if it should seem to be necessary, it would be possible for the Board of Trade to interfere and prevent any injustice being done.

Amendment moved— In Clause 5, page 4, line 27, after the word 'section,' to insert the words 'unless in any particular case the Board of Trade, on the application of any person interested, direct to the contrary.'"—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said he was much obliged to the noble Lord for the Amendment, which was an improvement in the Bill. This subsection was a very remarkable one, and one which had never appeared in any Act before. It was especially remarkable because it dealt with what was avowed on all hands to be a great experiment—a great experiment in trades of a much smaller character than many with which they were acquainted in this country, and which dealt with work-people who were poor, ill-educated, of humble position, and quite unable to protect themselves; and in respect of some of these trades the Government proposed in this subsection that a general power should be given to the experimental Trade Boards to make whatever minimum rate of wages they chose without any control from the Board of Trade. That was the original proposal; the only control was that if they misused the power it could be taken away. The Amendment which Lord Hamilton had now moved did not go so far as he would have liked, but it was certainly a substantial concession.

VISCOUNT MILNER said he was glad that the Government had seen their way to propose this Amendment on the suggestion of the noble Marquess. If he was not out of order, he would like to explain at this stage why no Amendment to Clause 6 stood on the Paper in his name. It would be within the recollection of their Lordships that in Committee he proposed an Amendment to Clause 6 with a view of meeting the difficulty which was certain to arise of evasion through the agency of middlemen. That Amendment met with a good deal of sympathy, and was only withdrawn on the promise of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill that the matter should have further consideration. He would like to express his obligation to the noble Lord for the courtesy he had since shown him in placing much information on this point at his disposal, and also in giving him the advantage of being able to confer with the officials of the Board of Trade on the subject. As the result of a fairly prolonged conference with those gentlemen he had come to the conclusion that, on the whole, the best course was not to try to amend the Bill on this point. Though the representatives of the Board were prepared to meet him to the extent of accepting one or two alternative forms of Amendment, they preferred the Bill as it was with its imperfections. As it would almost certainly be necessary to introduce an amending Act he had decided to wait until they could be guided by experience as to what provisions were required. The Bill, with its admitted incompleteness, would have a considerable effect in preventing sweating and in showing the great interest which Parliament took in the matter.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

*LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL moved an Amendment providing that the limitation in Clause 7 (Limited operation of minimum rate which has not been made obligatory), should apply "unless the Board of Trade direct to the contrary in any case in which they have directed the Trade Board to reconsider the rate." He said that this Amendment was designed to meet another point raised by the noble Marquess, and in which the Government recognised there was a good deal of weight.

Amendment moved— In Clause 7, subsection (1), page 5, line 33, after the word 'shall' to insert the words 'unless the Board of Trade direct to the contrary in any case in which they have directed the Trade Board to reconsider the rate.'"—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said he was much obliged to the noble Lord for bringing up this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

LORD HINDLIP, on behalf of LORD AMPTHILL, moved an Amendment in Clause 10 (Consideration by Trade Boards of complaints as to infraction of minimum rates), providing that "on the first occasion on which proceedings are contemplated by the Trade Board against an employer they shall take reasonable steps to" bring the case to the notice of the employer with a view to the settlement of the case without recourse to proceedings.

Amendment moved— In Clause 10, page 7, line 18, after the word 'may' to insert the words 'and on the first occasion on which proceedings are contemplated by the Trade Board against an employer they shall take reasonable steps to.'"—(Lord Hindlip.)

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

*LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL explained that the object of his next Amendment was to meet another of the noble Marquess's points. Their Lordships would recollect that when the Bill was in Committee an Amendment was inserted providing for the representation of home workers on Trade Boards. The purpose of this Amendment was to provide for a similar representation on the district trade committees.

Amendment moved— In Clause 12, page 8, line 22, after the word 'committee' to insert the words 'and for the representation of home workers thereon in the case of any trade in which a considerable proportion of homeworkers are engaged in the district.'"—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

*LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL moved the insertion of a new clause after Clause 19. When the Bill was in Committee their Lordships decided to strike out a clause giving an intercharge of powers between various Departments, and on that occasion he thought both the noble Lords who spoke in favour of that Amendment—certainly the noble Viscount, Lord St. Aldwyn—gave the House to understand that they would have been satisfied with the clause if it had contained a provision as to the transfer being done by His Majesty by Order in Council. That, he believed, had been the procedure inserted in recent legislation of this kind, and he now brought up the clause in that form and hoped their Lordships would accept it.

Amendment moved— After Clause 19 to insert the following new clause: '(1) His Majesty may, by Order in Council, direct that any powers to be exercised or duties to be performed by the Board of Trade under this Act shall be exercised or performed generally, or in any special cases or class of cases, by any other Government Department, and while any such Order is in force, this Act shall apply as if, so far as is necessary to give effect to the Order, that Government Department were substituted for the Board of Trade. (2) Any Order in Council under this section may be varied or revoked by any subsequent Order in Council.'"—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY regretted that neither the noble Viscount, Lord St. Aldwyn, nor Lord Ampthill, who moved the omission of the clause in Committee, was in his place. The Government now proposed to reintroduce the clause with this difference, that, instead of being done by the authority of the Government simply, this transfer of powers to another Department should only take place by Order in Council. He did not think that that contained the whole of Viscount St. Aldwyn's case. In any event it was evident that the words "by Order in Council" standing by themselves were merely a matter of form, and did not make the clause differ substantially from the one which their Lordships struck out in Committee. He did not think they would do well to agree to the clause unless further explanation was given. What kind of case were the Government contemplating? Why was it right to take powers from the Board of Trade, and to what other Department could they be given? Possibly there might be some advantage in allowing the exercise of these novel powers by the Home Office, for that Department, like the Board of Trade, commanded public confidence. But what reason could there be for transferring the powers from one Department to another? The Board of Trade was fully cognisant of these trade matters and had experienced officials accustomed to deal with points analogous to those that might arise under the operation of the Bill. He knew from experience that the Board of Trade exercised a real power in all these questions. When a power was given to the Board it was used. Let them take, for example, the power of sanctioning loans. The Board of Trade had that power and took precautions to ascertain that local authorities had a good case for borrowing before giving their sanction. He did not think other Departments exercised the same care. The Local Government Board had sinned most profoundly in that respect and had allowed local authorities to borrow recklessly. He confessed that in a similar way he had very little confidence in the Board of Education in matters of this kind. But in the Board of Trade they had confidence. He did not think the Government would be well advised in allowing the transfer of these powers to any other Department, but if they could make good a case for the Home Office the words "Secretary of State" might be substituted for "any other Government Department."

THE EARL OF CREWE

My Lords, the noble Marquess will, I think, admit that my noble friend behind me has tried to meet him and noble Lords opposite as far as possible in the course of the conduct of this Bill. The objection which was taken by noble Lords opposite, as we understood it, to this provision on the former occasion was in relation to the fact that there was no precedent for taking this power otherwise than by Order in Council, and my noble friend behind me thought that by securing that point he had met the objections of noble Lords opposite. The noble Marquess has made it clear that that is not entirely the case. I do not know exactly what fears the noble Marquess has in his mind. It is not, I think, likely that so competent a Department as the Board of Trade would lightly part with any of its powers under this Act to any Department which was not immediately or specially concerned. The noble Marquess, however, was undoubtedly right in assuming that the office which the Government especially had in mind in speaking of these transfers was the Home Office. The Home Office obviously have close connection in relation to the Factory Acts with matters which come within the purview of this Bill. Factory inspectors, for instance, are very likely to be employed as assistants under the power given, I think, by Clause 14 of this Bill, to bring in expert assistance in relation to these Boards. Since the noble Marquess specially desires to confine its operation to the Home Office His Majesty's Government will not stand out on the matter, but will accept the Amendment in the form which the noble Marquess suggests.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

I am very glad that the noble Earl sees his way to meet us on this point, because if I may venture to remind him he has not accepted the challenge of my noble friend and told the House what are the kind of cases it was intended to deal with under this clause. What we are face to face with is a proposal that very wide and far-reaching powers, which we are quite prepared to extend to the expert Department which really understands these matters, should be delegated to any other Department. I am very glad that the noble Earl has admitted that we are reasonable in deprecating that course, and I think we shall all consider that the Bill has been improved if he will allow the clause to run in the way suggested by my noble friend. I presume it would be that power should be delegated to another Secretary of State, meaning thereby the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

THE MARQUESS OP SALISBURY said that the Amendment as he proposed to amend it would read— His Majesty may, by Order in Council, direct that any powers to be exercised or duties to be performed by the Board of Trade under this Act shall be exercised or performed generally, or in any special cases or class of cases, by a Secretary of State, and while any such Order is in force, this Act shall apply as if, so far as is necessary to give effect to the Order, a Secretary of State were substituted for the Board of Trade.

Loan HAMILTON OF DALZELL then moved the Amendment in this form.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Drafting Amendment made.

Bill to be read 3a on Monday next, and to be printed as amended. (No. 176.)