§ Amendments reported (according to order).
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THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE had an Amendment on the Paper to subsection (4) of Clause 2—
(4) Where an established officer or servant of an asylum is injured—
the visiting committee of such asylum may grant to him such gratuity or special superannuation allowance as they may consider reasonable:Provided that a superannuation allowance shall not in any case exceed two-thirds of the salary or wages and emoluments of the superannuated person.
The Amendment was to insert, after the words "(c) by some injury, "the words "or illness." He understood that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill (Lord Monk Bretton) accepted this Amendment, and therefore he would not detain the House by explaining it. But there was a consequential Amendment arising out of this—namely, to insert, after the words "Where an established officer or servant of an asylum is injured," the words "or is incapacitated." He would first move the consequential Amendment.
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Amendment moved—
In page 2, line 32, after the word 'injured,' to insert the words 'or incapacitated.'"—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
§ THE LORD STEWARD (EARL BEAUCHAMP) congratulated the noble Earl on 484 having discovered a consequential Amendment which preceded the one on the Paper. It was worthy of the country to which the noble Earl belonged. This, however, was not an Amendment to which the Home Office could give their assent. In giving power to visiting committees to award superannuation in cases of incapacity a special concession had been made, and it might burden the rates considerably if the power were also given in cases of illness, In a great many instances it would be difficult, if not impossible, to decide whether the illness was specifically attributable to the nature of the duties, and in those circumstances a great many disappointments and disputes would arise. He thought their Lordships had dealt very liberally with asylum officers in this Bill, and he hoped the further concession proposed by the noble Earl would not be made.
§ On Question, Amendment negatived.
§ THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE intimated that after this decision he would not move the Amendment to insert the words "or illness." He was, however, disappointed at the action of the Government. These persons were particularly liable to diseases arising from the carelessness of lunatics, and he thought the Amendment would have been a desirable one to insert.
§ LORD MONK BRETTON moved an addition to Clause 2, which he hoped the Government would accept as it was in the interests of economy. The words which he proposed to add would prevent a local authority in a burst of generous enthusiasm giving too large a sum to any of its officers.
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Amendment moved—
In page 3, line 3, after the word 'person' to insert the words 'and a gratuity under this section shall not exceed one year's salary or wages and emoluments of the person to whom it is granted.'"—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
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THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE moved to amend subsection (1) of Clause 3—
3.—(1) Where a superannuation allowance is granted to an established officer or servant on the ground of incapacity for the performance of his duty, the managers or authority of the asylum shall, yearly or otherwise, until the power under this Act of requiring such officer or servant to serve again ceases, satisfy themselves that the incapacity continues, and unless they resolve that such evidence is unnecessary, shall satisfy themselves
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by the evidence of a legally qualified medical practitioner selected by the managers or authority,
by leaving out the words "managers or authority" ["the managers or authority of the asylum"] and substituting the words "visiting committee."
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Amendment moved—
In page 3, line 6, to leave out the words 'managers or authority' and to insert the words 'visiting committee.'"—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE also moved to substitute "visiting Committee" for "managers or authority" at the end of the subsection.
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Amendment moved—
In page 3, line 12, to leave out the words 'managers or authority' and to insert the words 'visiting committee.'"—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Drafting Amendments agreed to.
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VISCOUNT HARDINGE moved to amend Clause 4—
4. It shall be competent for the visiting committee with the consent of the local authority to grant at their discretion, and on such terms as they think fit, a gratuity to the widow or children of an established officer or servant dying while in the service of the asylum who if he had retired at the time of his death would have been entitled to a superannuation allowance, but such gratuity shall not exceed his total contributions, or one year's salary or wages and emoluments,
by dividing it into subsections and providing that in the case of the death of an established officer or servant while in service, the visiting committee, with the consent of the local authority, might grant a gratuity to his widow or children.
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Amendment moved—
In page 3, lines 29 and 30, to leave out the words 'a gratuity to the widow or children' and to insert—
Provided that a gratuity granted under subsections (a) and (b) of this clause'; and in line 34, after 'emoluments,' to insert 'whichever is the largest amount, and a gratuity granted under subsection (c) of this clause shall not exceed his total contributions and that an annual allowance granted under this clause shall not exceed two-thirds of his salary or wages and emoluments'"—(Viscount Hardinge.)
§ LORD MONK BRETTON, on behalf of the promoters of the Bill, supported the Amendment, and expressed the hope that, as the provision would be permissive and as he believed it emanated from Government sources, the noble Earl the Lord Steward would see his way to accept it.
§ EARL BEAUCHAMP said His Majesty's Government had no objection to the first part of the Amendment. But in paragraph (c) the noble Viscount had somewhat arbitrarily fixed the period of ten years. It seemed to him (Earl Beauchamp) that if a concession of this kind were to be given to asylum officers it would be fair to give it after ten years rather than before the completion of that period of service. That, however, was not the point he wished to press. The paragraph would create a precedent with regard to superannuation allowances, and in those circumstances the Home Office were unwilling to agree to it. Nothing of this kind existed in connection with pensions in the public service, and it was not thought desirable to introduce it here.
§ VISCOUNT HARDINGE said that after the noble Earl's statement he would withdraw paragraph (c).
§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH pointed out that paragraph (b) introduced a new element into the clause. In addition to a gratuity it would permit an annual allowance to be given. He did not like the term "annual allowance." It was difficult to distinguish between an annual allowance and a pension, and it seemed quite possible under the Amendment to give to a widow an actual pension for the rest of her life. He would, therefore, move to amend the Amendment by omitting from paragraph (b) the words "an annual allowance or."
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD LOREHURN) said it would be more convenient if he put the first part of the 487 Amendment down to the words "(a) In the case."
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR then put the Amendment to insert paragraph (b), to which Lord Clifford of Chudleigh had intimated his desire to move an Amendment.
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Amendment moved to the Amendment—
To leave out the words 'an annual allowance or,' and to insert the word 'a.'"—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)
§ On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.
§ Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT HARDINGE intimated that he withdrew paragraph (c) of his Amendment.
§ EARL BEAUCHAMP said there still remained the proviso at the end of the noble Viscount's Amendment, and as paragraph (c) had been deleted he suggested that the proviso should be amended by omitting the words "subsections (a) and (b) of" and inserting the word "under." It would then read "Provided that a gratuity under this clause." The words "a gratuity granted under subsection (c) of this clause shall not exceed his total contributions" were also now unnecessary and should be deleted.
§ VISCOUNT HARDINGE accepted the noble Earl's suggestions and amended his Amendment accordingly, a further suggestion from Lord Clifford of Chudleigh that the words "and that an annual allowance granted under this clause" should be omitted being postponed until Third Reading.
§ Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
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LORD MONK BRETTON moved to amend Clause 6—
6. All services by an established officer or servant in an asylum shall be aggregated and reckoned for the purposes of this Act, whether the services have been continuous or not, and whether they have been rendered at one or more asylums: Provided that no service which is not continuous for at least two years shall be so reckoned,
by inserting in the proviso, after the word "years," the words "under one local
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authority." He said their Lordships would remember that the clause was amended on the motion of Lord Belper by the insertion of a provision that no service should be reckoned as continuous in any asylum which did not come up to two years. Some local authorities had several asylums, and an officer might be transferred every six months or every year from one asylum to another. He was sure Lord Belper did not intend his Amendment to affect such a man, and the insertion of the words "under one local authority" would prevent any hardship occurring.
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Amendment moved—
In page 4, line 8, after 'years' to insert the words 'under one local authority.'"—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
§ LORD BELPER said he had not contemplated the case mentioned by the noble Lord, and as he understood the Amendment was designed to meet that case he had no objection to it.
§ EARL BEAUCHAMP said there was no objection in substance to the Amendment, but if on Third Reading it was considered necessary to alter the drafting he hoped the noble Lord would not object.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
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LORD MONK BRETTON moved to delete Clause 7—
7. When a person in receipt of superannuation allowance under this Act is appointed to any office or employment by any authority to which this Act applies, such allowance shall cease to be paid so long as he continues to hold such office or employment if the salary or wages and emoluments thereof are equal to or in excess of such allowance; if they are not, then only so much of such allowance shall be paid so long as he holds such employment as will make up the deficiency.
Any such person on ceasing to hold such office or employment shall be entitled to revert to and receive the full amount of his original superannuation allowance from the visiting committee which granted it. If an established officer or servant in receipt of superannuation allowance under this Act is appointed to an office or employment remunerated out of money provided by Parliament or out of a county or borough rate or fund, or out of any parochial district or other rate, he shall not while holding that office or employment receive more of the superannuation than, together with the remuneration of that office or employment, is equal to the remuneration of the office or employment in respect of which the superannuation was awarded,
and to insert a new clause, He explained that the new Clause 7 contained no matter which was not in the present clause, but as
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the latter was made up of two Amendments moved in Committee there was considerable redundancy. He thought the new clause expressed the two Amendments in better drafting.
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Amendment moved—
In page 4, to leave out clause 7 and to insert the following new clause—
'7. If an established officer or servant, in receipt of superannuation allowance under this Act, is appointed to any office or employment by any authority to which this Act applies, or to an office or employment remunerated out of money provided by Parliament, or out of a county or borough rate or fund, or out of any parochial, district, or other rate, he shall not, while holding that office or employment, receive more of the superannuation than, together with the remuneration of that office or employment, is equal to the remuneration of the office or employment in respect of which the superannuation was awarded.
Any such person on ceasing to hold such office or employment shall be entitled to revert to and receive the full amount of his original superannuation allowance from the visiting committee which granted it.'"—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Consequential Amendments to Clause 8 agreed to.
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LORD MONK BRETTON had three Amendments on the Paper to Clause 10—
10. (1) An established officer or servant who has not become entitled to a superannuation allowance, and who loses his office or employment by reason of reduction of staff, or of any other cause whatever other than his own misconduct or voluntary resignation, shall be entitled to receive the aggregate amount of his contributions under this Act.
(2) The visiting committee of an asylum may, if they think fit, repay to any female officer or servant leaving to be married after not Jess than three years service, the amount of her contributions under this Act, provided that within three months after leaving she produces to the visiting committee her marriage certificate.
(3) If an officer or servant who has received his contributions under this section subsequently obtains a fresh office or employment, he shall not be entitled to reckon his service before obtaining such fresh office or employment towards a superannuation allowance under this Act, unless, upon obtaining such fresh office or employment he pays the amount so received to the visiting committee under whom he obtains such fresh office or employment.
The Amendments were confined to subsection (3), and were designed to make the subsection read—
(3) If an officer or servant who has received his contributions under this section subsequently obtains a fresh office or employment in an asylum, he shall not be entitled to reckon his service before obtaining such fresh office or employment towards a superannuation allowance under this
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Act, unless, upon obtaining such fresh office or employment he repays the amount so received to the visiting committee from whom he received them.
He explained that the object of the Amendment was to bring Clause 10 into harmony with Clause 12.
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Amendments moved—
In page 5, line 28, after the word 'employment' to insert the words 'in an asylum'; in line 31, to leave out 'pays' and to insert 'repays'; and in line 32, to leave out from 'committee' to the end of the clause, and to insert 'from whom he received them.'"—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
§ EARL BEAUCHAMP suggested that the last word of the subsection as amended should be "it" not "them."
§ LORD MONK BRETTON said the word referred to the "contributions" and not to the "amount," and was therefore correct.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
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LORD MONK BRETTON moved to amend Clause 11—
11. When an established officer or servant of the first class has attained the age of fifty-live, or an established officer or servant of the second class has attained the age of sixty, and the visiting committee of the asylum in which he is employed are of opinion that his retirement would be expedient in the interests of the service, it shall be competent for them to require him to retire upon payment to him of the superannuation allowance to which he may be entitled under this Act:
Provided that nothing in this section shall prejudice the existing right of any visiting committee to dismiss any officer or servant employed in an asylum, or to reduce him to a lower rate of pay, or shall prevent his claim to a superannuation allowance from being refused in any case where under this Act a claim to superannuation allowance is forfeited,
by inserting, after the words "it shall be competent for them," the words "with the consent of the Secretary of State." He said the clause gave power to the local authority compulsorily to retire any officer of the first class at the age of fifty-five. He proposed to modify that power by moving to insert words providing that the order of the local authority should be approved by the Secretary of State, and, according to the interpretation, in Ireland the Secretary of State meant the Lord Lieutenant. This was a provision which particularly concerned the administration in Ireland. Some of the officers there were appointed by the Lord Lieutenant previous to the Local Government Act, and might
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not be so acceptable to the present authorities. He was also told that religious differences entered into these matters in Ireland, and he therefore hoped the Government would accept the Amendment.
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Amendment moved—
In page 5, line 40, after the word 'them' to insert the words 'with the consent of the Secretary of State.'"—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
§ EARL BEAUCHAMP said the Government could not accept the Amendment. There was nothing in this Amendment which limited it to Ireland; it would apply to every local authority throughout the country. Ministers had duties enough to discharge without being obliged to hold an inquiry into the case of every officer which the visiting committee of an asylum thought it well compulsorily to retire at the age of fifty-five. In his opinion they might fairly trust the local authority in such a matter.
§ THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY thought there was something to be said for the case of Ireland, and if the noble Earl would allow him he would put down an Amendment on the point for Third Reading.
§ LORD ASHBOURNE admitted the force of what the Lord Steward had said, but thought some Amendment of the kind was necessary to safeguard the interests of such officials in Ireland, as a man might be compulsorily retired for no other reason than that he had become unpopular.
§ THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE, in whose name a similar Amendment stood on the Paper, said this right of appeal existed in Ireland now, and all they desired was to safeguard an existing right.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE moved to insert in Clause 12 the following proviso:—"Provided that every superannuation allowance or gratuity under this Act shall be paid out of the fund out of which the salary or wages and emoluments of the officer or servant is or has been paid." He said the effect of the clause would be that all the allowances mentioned therein would be borne out of the visiting committees' maintenance fund, from which the cost of feeding, clothing, and maintenance of patients was paid. Repairs were carried out by the visiting committee 492 and the cost was subsequently recovered from the county rate. This cost included the wages of such men as were employed on repairs work, and he was told that in the London asylums and in some of the county asylums as well there was a considerable established permanent staff employed in carrying out these repairs. It was thought that all these officials, if the visiting committees included them in the necessary regulations, would come under the clause, and the London County Council, on whose behalf he moved this Amendment, felt that it was desirable that the fund from which the wages of the men came should be the fund from which the superannuation should come also.
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Amendment moved—
In page 6, line 19, after the word 'section' to insert the words 'Provided that every superannuation allowance or gratuity under this Act shall be paid out of the fund out of which the salary or wages and emoluments of the officer or servant is or has been paid.'"—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
§ EARL BEAUCHAMP said that the Home Office had no objection to the principle of the Amendment, and suggested a verbal alteration, which was accepted by Lord Donoughmore.
§ On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
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LORD MONK BRETTON moved the omission of Clause 13—
13. Where an officer or servant has been employed in a poor law asylum prior to or subsequent to his employment as au established officer or servant to which this Act applies, he shall, at the discretion of the managers or authority, be entitled to reckon his entire period of employment or service in both capacities for the purpose of pension on the scale and subject to the statutory requirements affecting pensions in the service from which he last retires.
He explained that this clause was inserted in Committee on the motion of Lord Donoughmore. Its object was to make asylum service for pension purposes interchangeable with Poor Law service. The noble Earl, in moving the clause, laid special stress upon the importance of bringing the Metropolitan Asylums Board into the Bill, and he thought it was chiefly with that object that the clause was inserted. The clause, however, considerably complicated the Bill. The promoters of the Bill would have been quite willing to accept the clause if it were workable, but it was objected to by the Local Government Board and was certainly
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outside the principle of the Bill, which was that asylums officers had a very difficult and dangerous service and should receive special treatment, whereas Poor Law officers did not come within that category. He had a number of Amendments on the Paper to bring the Metropolitan Asylums Board within the scope of the Bill, and he therefore hoped the noble Earl would agree to the deletion of the clause.
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Amendment moved—
To leave out Clause 13."—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MONK BRETTON moved an Amendment to Clause 14 to provide a punishment in the case of any person who made a wilful misstatement of fact. He said the Amendment had the sanction of the Government.
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Amendment moved—
In page 8, line 25, after the word 'made' to insert the words 'Any person who makes a wilful misstatement of material fact in any such declaration shall be liable on summary conviction to a line not exceeding fifty pounds or to imprisonment with or without hard labour not exceeding three calendar months.'"—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Drafting Amendment to Clause 15 agreed to.
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THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE had an Amendment on the Paper to Clause 16. The clause ran—
16. The salary or wages and emoluments of an established officer or servant shall, for the purpose of computing the amount of a superannuation allowance or gratuity, be calculated according to the average amount of his salary or wages and emoluments during the ten years ending on the quarter day which immediately precedes the day on which he ceases to hold his office or employment, or, in the case of an officer or servant with less than ten years service, on the average amount during his whole period of service; and the expression "emoluments" includes all fees, poundage and other payments made to any established officer or servant as such for his own use, and also the money value any apartments, rations, or other allowances in kind appertaining to his office or employment.
The annual money value of all such fees, poundage and other payments, apartments, rations, or other allowance in kind shall be set out in a schedule to be prepared by the visiting committee of every asylum and affixed in a conspicuous place in the asylum.
He moved to leave out the words "ten
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years" in both cases where they occurred and to substitute the words "five years." The object of the Amendment was to restore the Bill to the shape in which it left the Select Committee in another place, and he asked their Lordships to reconsider the matter because a very important point was involved. If the clause remained as it now stood with the period at ten years, asylum officers, who had very special duties and very special dangers, would be placed in a worse position than Poor Law officers, whose pensions were calculated on a five year basis and whose calling was nothing like as difficult or dangerous as that of those to whom this Bill applied. The case for this Amendment was stated by Mr. Byrne on behalf of the Home Office in his evidence before the Select Committee. Mr. Byrne said—
We should suggest that, as in the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, computation should be made on the average salary for the last live years. … As the rest of the Bill is based on the Poor Law Officers Act, we think that those officers should be pensionable on the average of the last five years.
He (Lord Donoughmore) therefore hoped their Lordships would agree to the Amendment.
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Amendment moved—
In page 8, line 36, to leave out 'ten' and to insert 'five'; and in line 38, to leave out 'ten' and to insert 'five.'"—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH hoped the Amendment would not be accepted. Considering the small amount which these officers would contribute towards the pension it was not unfair to them to take the calculation on a ten years basis.
§ LORD MONK BRETTON said he opposed this Amendment in Committee and must oppose it again on the score of economy. The Government were not proposing to give any grants in respect of asylum workers, as were given in the case of the police. If their Lordships altered the period from ten to five years they would be reversing the decision of the House of Commons.
§ On Question, Amendment negatived.
§ Drafting Amendments to Clause 17 agreed to.
§ LORD MONK BRETTON moved to add to Clause 17 a new subsection to bring the 495 Metropolitan Asylums Board within the Bill. The Metropolitan Asylums Board was not a Poor Law authority, and this was one of a series of Amendments which had been drafted with the approval of the Government in order to enable the Board's employés, who dealt with cases of acute mania almost as dangerous as the cases in ordinary lunatic asylums, to receive the benefits of this Bill.
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Amendment moved—
In page 9, line 28, after subsection (2) to insert the following new subsection—
'(3) In the case of an asylum for imbeciles provided or maintained by the Metropolitan Asylums Hoard, for references in this Act to the visiting committee of any asylum there shall be substituted references to the Board of Managers of the Metropolitan Asylums District, and for references to the Secretary of State there shall be substituted references to the Local Government Board.'"—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Drafting Amendment to Clause 18 agreed
§
LORD MONK BRETTON moved to amend Clause 20—
20. The enactments specified in the schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column thereof, subject to this qualification, that this repeal shall not affect the payment of any superannuation allowance granted before the commencement of this Act.
Any established officer or servant who is at the date of the commencement of this Act in the service or employment of a visiting committee of an asylum to which this Act applies may at any time within three months after the commencement of this Act signify in writing to such authority his intention not to avail himself of the provisions of this Act, and in that event it shall not be obligatory on him notwithstanding anything in this Act contained to make any contribution or submit to any deduction from his salary or wages under this Act, nor shall he be entitled to receive any superannuation allowance, gratuity, or other benefit under this Act, but any such established officer or servant of an asylum who has given such notice as aforesaid shall remain subject to the provisions of the enactments repealed by this Act with respect to the superannuation allowances of officers and servants in asylums as if this Act had not been passed,
by inserting, after the word "Act" ["shall remain subject to the provisions of the enactments repealed by this Act"] towards the end of the clause, the words "or, in the case of an officer or servant of the Metropolitan Asylums Board to the Poor Law Officers Superannuation Act, 1896." He said this was the first of two Amendments the object of which was to enable contracting
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out to apply to the officers of the Metropolitan Asylums Board.
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Amendment moved—
In page 11, line 1, after 'Act' to insert the words 'or, in the case of an officer or servant of the Metropolitan Asylums Board to the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896.'"—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
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Amendment moved—
In page 11, line 3, after the word 'passed,' to insert the words 'After the expiration of three months from the commencement of this Act the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896, shall cease to apply to any established officer or servant employed in an asylum who has not, in the manner provided by this section, signified his intention not to avail himself of the provisions of this Act.'"—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE moved to insert a new subsection in Clause 20. This new subsection, he said, was essential in view of Amendments made to a former clause. Its object was to protect those existing officers who, although employed by a visiting committee and entitled to receive superannuation allowances under Section 280 of the Lunacy Act, 1890, might be determined under Clause 17 of this Bill not to be established officers. As Clause 20 stood these existing officers would neither be entitled to any benefits under the Bill nor under the section of the Lunacy Act referred to, as that section was repealed by the Bill. The salaries and wages of these officers were fixed on the assumption that they would be entitled to superannuation allowances, and without some such Amendment as he proposed they would fall between two stools.
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Amendment moved—
In page 11, line 3, to insert the following new subsection—
'(2) Any officer or servant of the asylum who is at the date of the commencement of this Act in the service of a visiting committee of an asylum to which this Act applies, and who is not or is not determined to be an established officer or servant within the meaning of this Act, shall remain subject to the provisions of the enactments repealed by this Ant with respect to the superannuation allowances of officers and servants in asylums as if this Act had not been passed.'"—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next, and to be printed as amended. (No. 219.)