§ Amendments reported (according to order).
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LORD CLINTON moved to amend the definition in Clause 2, which provided that—
the word 'dairy' shall include any creamery, farm, farmhouse, cowshed, byre, milk store, milk
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shop, or other premises from which milk is sold or supplied for sale or in which it is stored or kept for purposes of sale, or which are used for the making of butter or cheese for purposes of sale; the word 'dairyman' shall include any occupier of a dairy and any person carrying on the trade of cowkeeper or purveyor of milk; and the word 'milk' shall include cream, skimmed milk, separated milk, and butter milk,
by substituting the word "mean" for the word "include" in the three places where it occurred. The word "include," as he understood it, implied that there were some other meanings to be attached to the words "dairy," "dairyman," and "milk," besides those actually laid down in the clause. The definition of "dairy" was already a wide one, and he did not think it was intended that it should have other meanings than those in the clause. The earlier part of the section provided that expressions used in the Bill should have the meanings assigned to them in the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897, and those meanings were reproduced, with certain modifications. He gathered that there was no further meaning which could be included in the word "dairy"; and they would object to the word having any wider meaning than that assigned to it in the clause. The noble Lord concluded by moving the first of his three Amendments.
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Amendment moved—
In page 1, line 11, to leave out the word 'include' and to insert the word 'mean.' "—(Lord Clinton.)
§ THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (LORD PENTLAND) said he did not pretend to be an authority on drafting, but he was advised that the word "include" was the word used in earlier legislation, that it would only lead to confusion to use a different word now, and that there was no danger, as the noble Lord anticipated, that the use of the word "include" rather than "mean" would lead to any wider interpretation. He therefore submitted that it would be safer to adhere to the word "include."
§ LORD CLINTON said that if the Secretary for Scotland was satisfied that there was really no danger of a larger meaning being attached to the word "dairy," he would withdraw his Amendment.
§ LORD PENTLAND said he had no doubt upon the point.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
809§ LORD PENTLAND moved to insert words in Clause 2 providing that "dairyman" should include any "maker of butter or cheese." He explained that the words were in the original draft of the Bill, but by some mischance they had dropped out.
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Amendment moved—
In page 1, line 18, after the first 'milk,' to insert the words or maker of butter or cheese.' "(Lord Pentland.)
§ THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN thought the words proposed to be inserted were superfluous because they were already contained in the definition of "dairy." But if they were inserted it would be necessary to add at the end the words "for sale"; otherwise any person who made butter or cheese would be a dairyman.
§ LORD PENTLAND said he was assured that the words "carrying on the trade" and "purveyor" implicitly conveyed the notion of sale. He would, however, consider the point, and if the words suggested were necessary they should be inserted.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Consequential Amendments to Clause 5 agreed to.
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LORD PENTLAND moved to amend subsection (3) of Clause 5, which provided that—
Any person proposing to carry on the trade of a dairyman in premises for which a certificate of registration is not in force shall, not less than two months before beginning to occupy or use such premises as a dairy, lodge with the local authority an application for a certificate of registration,
by omitting the words "for which a certificate of registration is not in force." This Amendment would place the two categories of farms, those which had been used hitherto and those which had not been used hitherto as dairy farms, in the same position.
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Amendment moved—
In page 3, lines 14 and 15, to leave out the words 'for which a certificate of registration is not in force.' "—(Lord Pentland.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved to add to Clause 5 a new subsection, the 810 object of which was, he explained, to make quite sure that the certificate of registration was a continuing thing. The Bill, even as amended, did not make that quite clear. He was not certain whether Lord Pentland's Amendments would have this effect without this subsection, but he did not think it would do any harm to make the point clear.
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Amendment moved—
In page 3, line 24, after the word refusing,' to insert the following new subsection:
'(4) A certificate of registration shall remain in force until it is revoked by the local authority or until the person to whom it was granted quits the premises in respect of which it was granted, in which case it shall cease to be in force unless and until it is renewed upon the application of the person proposing to carry on the trade of dairyman in the premises in respect of which the certificate of registration was originally granted.'"—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
§ LORD PENTLAND submitted that the proposed new subsection was unnecessary. In the Amendments standing on the Paper in his name the Government had accepted the position imposed upon them by the change made in the Bill in Committee abandoning the system of annual licence. He could not answer for what night be the future course in regard to this Bill, but they had loyally carried throughout the Bill the change effected by the decision of their Lordships. If the machinery was not complete they would be very glad to adjust it, but the proposed new subsection would be surplusage in the Bill as it stood.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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LORD PENTLAND moved to strike out from subsection (4) of Clause 5 the words—
Every application for the renewal of a certificate of registration shall be lodged with the local authority not later than the first day of March. The local authority shall, not later than the thirty-first day of March, intimate to the applicant their decision on the application, and, in case of refusal, their reasons for so refusing.
He explained that the object of leaving out these words was to do away with the difficulty arising out of entry at different times of the year. If the Amendment were adopted it would be possible for registration to be secured at any time of the year.
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Amendment moved—
In page 3, lines 25 to 30, to leave out from the beginning of subsection (4) to the word Provided' in line 30."—(Lord Pentland.)
§ LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH understood that, acting differently and in different ways, the noble Lord's Amendments which their Lordships were now going through were designed to have exactly the same effect as the Amendment he (Lord Balfour) had just withdrawn—namely, to provide that the certificate was to be a continuing thing and not to be annually renewable.
§ LORD PENTLANDThat is so.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Consequential Amendments agreed to.
§ LORD PENTLAND moved the insertion in Clause 5 of a new subsection giving power for revocation of a certificate of registration under certain conditions. He explained that the power was similar to that in the English Bill.
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Amendment moved—
In page 3, line 42, after the word sale 'to insert the following new subsection:
'(5) In respect of any premises the local authority may refuse to grant a certificate of registration or may revoke such certificate if—
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Consequential Amendments agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN pointed out that Lord Pentland had not placed on the Paper the Amendment in subsection (8) of Clause 5 which he deferred when the Bill was in Committee. He had since looked into the point and now thought that Lord Pentland's Amendment would have been an improvement. The result of the Amendment would be that a person whose dairy was in one district and who sold milk in another would require, to obtain two certificates. As the subsection stood it only dealt with one case, whereas if the words which Lord Pentland had proposed to leave out were omitted it would deal with both. Therefore if the Secretary for Scotland agreed, he would move to omit the words which the noble Lord had proposed to leave out when the Bill was in Committee.
§ LORD PENTLAND admitted that there was a little doubt on this point, and said 812 that he intentionally omitted placing upon the Paper the Amendment referred to by the noble Earl. He had taken that course in order to admit of further consideration of the point, on which he hoped to arrive at a decision before the next stage of the Bill.
§ THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said that in these circumstances he would not move.
§ LORD PENTLAND moved the addition of a new subsection to Clause 5.
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Amendment moved—
In page 4, line 25, after the word Board 'to, insert the following new subsection:
'(11) With respect to the granting of certificates of registration in the year nineteen hundred and ten, the following provisions shall take effect; that is to say—
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
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LORD CLINTON moved to amend Clause 10, subsection (1), which ran—
The Board shall make regulations under the Public Health (Regulations as to Food) Act, 1907, for the prevention of danger arising to public health from the importation of milk intended for sale for human consumption,
by inserting, after the word "milk," the, words "and milk products." He noticed that Lord Pentland had an Amendment on the Paper to insert, after the word "milk," the words "butter and cheese." That, however, did not go so far as his Amendment which would also cover such articles as condensed milk. He felt that words should be inserted to protect the public against diseased condensed milk.
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Amendment moved—
In page 6, line 17, after the word 'milk,' to insert the words 'and milk products.' "—(Lord Clinton.)
§ LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH pointed out that the definition of milk in Clause 7 mentioned a number of things that did not include condensed milk. There might, therefore, be a powerful argument that it was intentionally left out.
§ LORD PENTLAND doubted whether their Lordships would do wisely in extending the definition. It was difficult to say what milk products were. He was of opinion that imported condensed milk was covered in different ways; but perhaps the noble Lord would allow him to take advice on the point.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ LORD PENTLAND moved to insert, after the word "milk," the words "butter and cheese."
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Amendment moved—
In page 6, line 17, after the word 'milk,' to insert the words 'butter and cheese.' "—(Lord Pentland.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
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LORD PENTLAND moved to amend subsection (2), which provided that—
The Board may from time to time make such general or special orders as they think fit for the purpose of carrying this Act into effect,
by inserting, after the word "Board," the words "after consultation with the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries." He hoped this would reassure noble Lords opposite as to the Government's intentions in this matter.
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Amendment moved—
In page 6, line 19, after the word 'Board' to insert the words 'after consultation with the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries.'"—(Lord Pentland.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD PENTLAND moved the insertion of a new clause after Clause 13.
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Amendment moved—
After Clause 13, to insert the following new clause:
§ '14. A local authority on receipt of a report under this Act from which it appears that a cow is suffering from tuberculosis with emaciation, or from tuberculosis of the udder, or is giving tuberculous milk, shall, if they are not the local authority under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, 814 of the district in which the cow is kept, send to that local authority a copy of the report or a sufficient extract therefrom.' "—(Lord Pentland.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
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LORD PENTLAND moved to add at the end of Clause 15—
15. The medical officer of health of the district in which milk is produced shall with all practicable speed furnish to the medical officer of health of the district to which the milk is consigned, or in which it is sold or offered or exposed or kept for sale for human food, information regarding all cases of infectious disease of which he is cognisant occurring amongst the persons employed or in the families of persons employed, or amongst the persons residing at the dairy from which the milk is consigned,
the words "and for the purposes of this section the dairyman shall furnish such first-mentioned medical officer of health with a list of the districts to which his milk is consigned."
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Amendment moved—
In page 7, line 34, after the word 'consigned,' to insert the words 'and for the purposes of this section, the dairyman shall furnish such first-mentioned medical officer of health with a list of the districts to which his milk is consigned.' "— (Lord Pentland.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
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LORD PENTLAND moved to amend Clause 19—
19. The local authority and any officers appointed by them for the execution of this Act shall have power to enter, inspect, and examine at all reasonable times any dairy, and for the purposes of this Act the medical officer shall have power to examine any person employed or residing at any dairy and the veterinary inspector shall have power to examine the cattle in any dairy, and every dairyman and the persons in his employment shall give all reasonable facilities and assistance to the local authorities and their officers in the execution of this Act,
by inserting, at the beginning of the clause, the words "'Within their district."
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Amendment moved—
In page 11, line 12, at the beginning of the line, to insert the words Within their district.'"—(Lord Pentland.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
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Amendment moved—
In Clause 23, page 12, line 14, to leave out the words cancel the licence held by such dairyman,' and to insert the words suspend his certificate of
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registration in respect of any premises for such period as may be specified in the order, or cancel such certificate, but in the latter case without prejudice to the right of the dairyman to make application for a new certificate of registration.' "—(Lord Pentland.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN thought the present would be a good opportunity for the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture to give an answer as to how the expenses incurred by the local authority for the purpose of this Bill were to be borne. Clause 25 provided that these expenses should be chargeable on the public health general assessment leviable under the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897. He would like to ask whether the Government proposed to make any contribution out of the Exchequer towards the expenses of the Bill, which, so far as Scotland was concerned, had to be taken in connection with the Order of the Board of Agriculture issued in May last.
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (EARL CARRINGTON) said he was very anxious to meet the noble Earl. The matter was now under close consideration, and he would promise to do his best to make a statement on the subject on Third Reading.
§ THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said it was very desirable that before the Bill left their Lordships' House the position in this matter should be understood. It would be remembered that he asked this question on Second Reading and again in Committee, and received on each occasion a similar answer to the one now given. After the Third Reading the Bill would practically be out of their Lordships' hands. He did not think the Third Reading ought to be taken before a definite answer one way or the other had been received to his question. He therefore asked the noble Earl to name some day before the Third Reading on which the question should be put as a separate Question.
§ EARL CARRINGTON said the only reason he did not wish to reply now was not to be obliged to give a negative answer in any way. His desire was to meet the noble Earl, and if he would put down a Question on the point that would, perhaps, be the best way of meeting the object.
816§ THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN intimated that he would put down a Question for Tuesday next.
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LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved to amend Clause 27, subsection (2), which ran—
The Cattlesheds in Burghs (Scotland) Act, 1866, shall not apply to any premises which are required to be licensed in terms of this Act,
by substituting the word "registered" for the word "licensed."
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Amendment moved—
In page 12, line 34, to leave out the word 'licensed,' and to insert the word 'registered.' "—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
§ LORD PENTLAND accepted the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next, and to be printed as amended. (No. 122.)