HL Deb 22 July 1909 vol 2 cc688-712

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[THE EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

LORD CLINTON moved an Amendment postponing the date at which the Bill should come into operation from January 1, 1910, to May 28, 1910. The object, he said, was to give more time to the local authorities and other persons interested in the measure to arrange the preliminaries that were necessary before the Bill came into operation.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 6, to leave out the words 'first day of January' and to insert the words `twenty-eighth day of May.'"—(Lord Clinton.)

THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (LORD PENTLAND) said that the licences under the Act were annual, and they would expire on May 28 each year. It was not intended that the licences should run from an earlier date than May 28, though it had been thought desirable to bring the Bill into force on January 1. The object here aimed at was to enable preparations to be made so that the licences might be issued in due course in May.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHreferred to a custom in the south-west of Scotland, mainly in Ayrshire, where the dairy industry was largely maintained, whereby landlord and tenants made bargains that farms should be carried on for dairying purposes, the landlord to carry out repairs. A tenant bound to carry on his farm as a dairy farm might find the local authority intervening and saying that the buildings were not sufficient. The tenant could not be expected to put up new buildings if there were only a few years of the lease to run. Thus it might take a little time to bring the measure into operation without difficulty and friction if the interests of two or three parties had to be consulted and adjusted.

LORD PENTLAND said the Government thought that the five months which would elapse between January 1 and May 28 was a long enough period, but if it should appear that a longer time was necessary he would be prepared to consider whether or not a prolongation of the period should be granted.

LORD SALTOUN asked, with regard to Lord Clinton's Amendment, whether the Secretary for Scotland would add the words to make the point clear.

LORD PENTLAND said he would consider whether any additional words could be put in. But in any case the noble Lord could take his assurance that it was the intention of the Government that should the Bill pass into law licences should not date from an earlier time than May 28.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2:

LORD PENTLAND moved to amend Clause 2, which ran— Expressions used in this Act shall (unless such meaning is inconsistent with the context) have the meanings assigned to them in the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897, and subject to the following modifications: the word 'dairy' shall include any creamery, farm, farmhouse, cowshed, byre, milk store, milk shop, or other premises from which milk is supplied or in which it is stored or kept for purposes of sale, or which are used for the making of butter or cheese; the word 'dairyman' shall include any cowkeeper, purveyor of milk, occupier of a dairy, or maker of butter or cheese; and the word 'milk' shall include cream, skimmed milk, separated milk, and butter milk, by omitting the words "from which milk is supplied," and inserting "from which milk is sold or supplied for sale." He said the object of the Amendment was to make it clear that the provisions of the clause applied only when people were selling milk for the purposes of trade.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 13, after the first 'is,' to insert the words 'sold or,' and after the word 'supplied' to insert the words 'for sale.'"—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH, who had an Amendment on the Paper to insert the words "for sale" after the word "cheese," asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the next Amendments in his (Lord Pentland's) name achieved the same object. The desire was to make sure that no person who did not make a milk product for sale would come under the Bill.

LORD PENTLAND

That is so.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH in these circumstances did not move his Amendment.

LORD PENTLAND then moved his next Amendments to which Lord Balfour had referred.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 15, after the word 'cheese,' to insert the words 'for purposes of sale.'"—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 16, after the word 'any' to insert the words 'occupier of a dairy and any person carrying on the trade of.'"—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN moved to omit from the clause the word "cow-keeper." He said there were persons who kept cows but who did not sell the milk. Probably the way the word "cowkeeper" got in was that it was in the definition in the old Acts; but every person who kept cows and sold the milk was already covered by other words in the definition.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 16, to leave out the word 'cow-keeper,' and after the word 'milk' to insert the word 'or.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

LORD PENTLAND said the noble Earl was correct in presuming that the word "cowkeeper" was taken from the two previous enactments. He preferred that the word should be retained, qualified by the insertion later of the words "carrying on the trade of a cowkeeper." He thought that would meet Lord Camperdown's point.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN could not see how this would meet his point. Surely there was no difference between a cowkeeper and a person carrying on the trade of a cowkeeper.

LORD PENTLAND said his proposed words would distinguish between a cowkeeper who used the milk himself and a person who kept cows for the purpose of selling the produce.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3—

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4:

LORD PENTLAND moved to amend Clause 4, which ran— 4.—(1) It shall be the duty of the medical officer of health, or other officer authorised by the local authority for the purpose, from time to time and once at least in every year, to inspect every dairy in the district and report to the local authority not later than the first day of March in every year whether such dairy is in conformity with this Act and the by-laws made in terms thereof. (2) It shall be the duty of the veterinary inspector from time to time and once at least in every year to inspect the cattle in every dairy in the district and report to the local authority the result of every such inspection. (3) The local authority may prescribe the form in which the reports under this section shall be made, by making subsection (1) commence— It shall be the duty of the medical officer of health or the sanitary inspector or any other duly authorised officer as may be determined by the local authority," etc.

Amendment moved— In page 2, line 27, to leave out the word 'other,' and to insert the words 'the sanitary inspector or any other duly authorised,' and to leave out the word 'authorised' and to insert the words 'as may be determined.'"—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN moved to insert, after the word "authorised," the words "in writing." He thought the authority should be in writing. Otherwise anyone might say he had been authorised to make an inspection.

Amendment moved— In page 2, line 27, after the word 'authorised,' to insert the words 'in writing.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

LORD PENTLAND accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN moved to leave out the words "not later than the first day of March in every year," and to insert the words "at such time in every year as the local authority may direct." He said that difficulty frequently arose from inserting fixed dates, and in cases of this sort it was better to leave some discretion to the local authority as to the particular dates which might be best for the medical officer and the inspector to report. It might happen that in many places the first day of March would be too early. At all events he thought this was a matter which might safely be left to each local authority to decide for itself.

Amendment moved— In page 2, lines 29 and 30, to leave out the words 'not later than the first day in March in every year,' and to insert the words 'at such time in every year as the local authority may direct.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

LORD PENTLAND said the date in the clause had been inserted for the protection of dairymen. This was a system of annual licensing and annual inspection, and it was thought to be only fair to dairymen that the inspection should take place at any rate not later than March 1. This would give them a little margin of time in which to conform to any requirements which the local authority might impose.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD PENTLAND moved to add a new subsection.

Amendment moved— In page 2, line 38, after subsection (3), to insert the following subsection: 4. Medical officers of health, sanitary inspectors, veterinary inspectors, or other officers authorised as aforesaid, shall be bound to make such returns and special reports to the Board in such form and at such times as the Board shall require."—Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5:

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved to substitute a certificate of registration for a licence. He said that to make the carrying on of this business subject to annual licence seemed unduly harsh and liable to be perverted into an instrument of oppression. He quite agreed that the premises should be inspected, but thought that a certificate of registration would answer the purpose better than an annual licence. It was unfair, he thought, to keep those who were engaged in a perfectly legitimate business in a state of uncertainty. Once premises were registered they should not be interfered with without good cause shown. The Chamber of Agriculture in Scotland were inclined to press this point very strongly. It was no new one to them. This Bill was largely an adaptation of one which was introduced into the House of Commons last year by a private Member who had recently succeeded to a post in connection with the Government, and last year this provision was much animadverted upon and condemned by agriculturists all over Scotland.

Amendment moved— In page 2, line 14, to leave out the word 'licensed,' and to insert the words 'given a certificate of registration.'" — (Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

LORD PENTLAND said he would be only too willing to defer to the noble Lord's authority if it were not for certain circumstances which he thought had not been brought to the noble Lord's notice. In the first place, the Bill only proposed to continue a practice which had already been in operation throughout the burghs of Scotland. In the burghs these premises were licensed now. Slaughter-houses were regulated on the same system as it was now proposed to apply throughout Scotland to dairies—a system of annual licensing and annual inspection. He did not think a system of annual licensing need be any more oppressive than the system which the noble Lord suggested.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH was not convinced by the arguments used by the noble Lord. He knew that local authorities were not usually unreasonable, but if this power was given and an unreasonable local authority was to be in a position simply to sit still and decline to renew a licence, the farmer would be placed in a very difficult and unfair position. A slaughter-house presented no real analogy with a dairy. The noble Lord had not explained why the Bill for England should propose a system of registration and the one for Scotland should propose a system of licensing. He could assure the noble Lord that the injustice of this was felt very strongly in Scotland, and he had in his hand a protest from the Chamber of Agriculture in Edinburgh, of which for the current year he was president.

LORD SALTOUN supported the view taken by Lord Balfour. In the burghs the hardship was not so great, as the dairymen were on the spot and the procuring of a licence was not a serious matter; but in country districts dairymen might have to travel a long way to get the licence, which in itself would constitute a difficulty. He hoped that, on reconsideration, the Government would accept the Amendment.

LORD PENTLAND said he had mentioned burghs, not because the conditions were exactly similar, but because it seemed highly undesirable, if it could be avoided, that dairymen in burghs should be under one system and dairymen in the country under another; and their experience of the smooth and successful working of this system in the case of burghs supplied a primâ facie case for extending it to the counties. The English Bill proceeded on different lines as it made general conditions throughout the whole country. He did not think there was much likelihood that local authorities in Scotland would act oppressively towards farmers in their districts. Moreover, in subsection (7), an appeal was provided for in such an event.

LORD LEITH OF FYVIE said that the County Council of Aberdeenshire had appointed a committee to go into the matter. He had the committee's report in his hand, and although they did not propose to change the word "licence" for "certificate of registration," yet that was implied, because they suggested that the appeal should be to the Local Government Board and not to the sheriff.

LORD PENTLAND said this was a point they could consider later.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN intimated that he would support the noble Lord if he went to a Division. The local authority was to have the premises inspected every year by a medical officer and a veterinary inspector, and any defect would soon be brought to its notice. Surely registration with continual inspection constituted a sufficient guarantee. Further restrictions ought not to be imposed unless they were absolutely necessary.

*THE EARL OF CREWE thought the noble Lord was entitled to say, if he could prove

Resolved in the negative.

Amendment agreed to accordingly.

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND said that many other alterations would now be rendered necessary which were not upon the Paper.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH said that if the burghs which were accustomed to the system of annual licensing desired it continued, that was a matter entirely for them and he would have no objection.

it, that the procuring of a licence might be an unnecessary, tedious and troublesome operation, but he did not think there was much risk of the oppressive use of the provision by the local authority in the county in which the farmers themselves lived.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH said he felt strongly that this would be a tyrannical power, and he was, therefore, obliged to press the matter to a Division.

On Question, whether the word proposed to be left out shall stand part of the clause?

Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 20; Not-contents, 52.

CONTENTS.
Crewe, E.(L. Privy Seal.) Blyth, L. Knollys, L.
Colebrooke, L.[Teller.] Lucas, L.
Carrington, E. Denman, L.[Teller.] Marchamley, L.
Craven, E. Eversley, L. Pentland, L.
Liverpool, E. Glantawe, L. Pirrie, L.
Portsmouth, E. Hamilton of Dalzell, L. Saye and Sele, L.
Herschell, L. Shuttleworth, L.
Althorp, V.(L. Chamberlain.)
NOT-CONTENTS.
Bedford, D. Vane, E.(M. Londonderry.) Clonbrock, L.
Portland, D. Waldegrave, E. Collins, L.
Dunboyne, L.
Ailesbury, M. Churchill, V. Dunmore, L.(E. Dunmore.)
Bath, M. Cross, V. Egerton, L.
Lansdowne, M. Falkland, V. Hatherton, L.
Salisbury, M. Goschen,V. Hindlip, L.
Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore.) James, L.
Camperdown, E. Kilmarnock, L.(E. Erroll.)
Cromer, E. Alverstone, L. Kintore, L.(E. Kintore.)
Dartrey, E. Ashbourne, L. Lamington, L.
Halsbury, E. Atkinson, L. Lawrence, L.
Lauderdale, E. Balfour, L.[Teller.] Leith of Fyvie, L.
Lovelace, E. Barrymore, L. Macnaghten, L.
Mar and Kellie, E. Belper, L. Newlands, L.
Mayo, E. Bowes, L.(E. Strathmore and Kinghorn.) Northcote, L.
Morton, E. Saltoun, L.[Teller.]
Northbrook, E. Calthorpe, L. Sanderson, L.
Onslow, E. Clinton, L. Wemyss, L.(E. Wemyss.)

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES suggested that the remainder of Clause 5 should be agreed to and the form of the Amendments necessary in consequence of the decision to which their Lordships had arrived on Lord Balfour's Amendment could be considered between now and the next stage of the Bill. He thought it would be impossible to make the necessary Amendments at this stage.

LORD PENTLAND agreed that the course suggested by the Lord Chairman would lead to less confusion.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH said it was not for him to challenge the ruling of the Chair. But he had, in anticipation of the decision to which their Lordships had arrived, drafted the Amendments necessary to make the clause read. He first moved the deletion of subsection (2), which had reference to the date on which licences should expire.

Amendment moved— In page 3, lines 1 and 2, to leave out subsection (2)."—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved to amend subsection (3) so that it would read— Every application for a certificate of registration or for the renewal of a certificate of registration shall be in such form, and be accompanied by such information, as may be prescribed by the local authority.

Amendment moved— In page 3, lines 3 and 4, to leave out the word 'licence' and to insert the words 'certificate of registration.' "—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Other consequential Amendments agreed to.

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

LORD CLINTON moved an Amendment to run subsections (4) and (5) into one subsection. He thought it would be better that this should be done, as otherwise the proviso at the end of subsection (5) might be regarded as not applying to subsection (4).

Amendment moved— In page 3, line 15, to leave out '(5).'"—(Lord Clinton.)

LORD PENTLAND accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CLINTON pointed where a man applied for a licence for a farm in respect of which no licence was in existence he had to give only two months notice; but if the application was for the renewal of a licence it had to be lodged with the local authority not later than March 1. Therefore a tenant entering at Martinmas would either have to give nine months notice or wait until the following March. He moved to amend the provision regarding applications for renewals by omitting the words "not later than the first day of March."

Amendment moved— In page 3, lines 16 and 17, to leave out the words 'not later than the first day of March.'"—(Lord Clinton.)

LORD PENTLAND said that applications for renewals and applications for new licences were now on the same footing. The object of requiring two months notice generally was to give protection to the dairyman, so that he might know before-hand what conditions the local authority wished to impose upon him.

LORD CLINTON could not see that both were on the same footing; and,

LORD PENTLAND said that if the noble Lord would confer with him he would endeavour to meet his point.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND moved to amend subsection (9)— (9) Where a person sells from a cart, van, or other vehicle within a district milk supplied from without the district, such cart, van, or vehicle shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed premises within the district, by inserting, after the word "sells," the word "milk," and omitting the words "milk supplied from without the district." He said this Amendment carried out the same purpose as the Amendment standing in the name of Lord Camperdown. The noble Earl's Amendment was to insert, after the word "district," the words "in which the milk is sold"; but he was advised that the Government's Amendment was the shorter way of arriving at the same end.

Amendment moved— In page 4, line 1, after the word 'sells,' to insert the word 'milk,' and in line 2, to leave out the words 'milk supplied from without the district.'"—(Lord Pentland.)

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN asked whether he was correct in inferring that, by this Amendment, where a person sold milk from a cart outside his district that cart was to be deemed premises within the district in which the milk was sold.

LORD PENTLAND said it would be deemed premises within the district to which the dairy belonged. Carts, utensils, and so forth were part of the premises belonging to the dairy, and therefore would be deemed in the district in which that dairy was situated.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said the provision in the subsection was "be deemed premises within the district." That district, surely, was the district in which the milk was sold and not the district of origin.

LORD CLINTON pointed out that under the interpretation clause of the Act of 1897 vehicles were already premises in the district in which the milk was sold.

LORD PENTLAND said this Bill was, in part, a Consolidation Bill, and that confirmed the statement which had just been made by Lord Clinton. He hoped the Committee would insert the Amendment now, and he would look into the matter.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said that if the Amendment were inserted the responsibility would be upon him to look into the matter. He would prefer it the other way.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6:

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved the insertion of words providing that the by-laws made by the local authorities for the inspection and conduct of dairies should be framed "after consultation with the Board of Agriculture." He did not wish the Board to have a controlling power, but thought that its expert staff should be consulted on this subject.

Amendment moved— In page 4, line 12, after the word 'Act' to insert the words 'and after consultation with the Board of Agriculture.'"— (Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

LORD PENTLAND said that, although it was under no statutory obligation to do so, it was the practice of the Local Government Board of Scotland, to whom these by-laws would have to be submitted for approval, to consult with the Board of Agriculture. The Local Government Board would, under the Bill, continue the existing practice.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH said that if a guarantee could be given that the Board of Agriculture would be consulted by the Local Government Board he had nothing more to say.

LORD PENTLAND

Undoubtedly that will be so.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN had Amendments on the Paper to subsection (1). The subsection ran— It shall be the duty of every local authority, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, to make by-laws for their district providing—

  1. (a) For the inspection of cattle in dairies;
  2. (b) For prescribing and regulating the structure, lighting, ventilation (including air space), cleansing, drainage, and water supplies of dairies and their appurtenants;
  3. (c) For securing the health of the cows and the cleanliness of the persons and clothing of those engaged in the business, and of the milk, cows, dairies, utensils, and vessels used for the reception, conveyance, storage, or sale of milk;
  4. (d) For prescribing precautions to be taken by dairymen against infection or contamination.
Such by-laws shall apply to all dairies whether constructed before or after the passing of this Act, but by-laws under paragraph (b) of this subsection shall not be applicable to dairies where the dairyman sells milk only in small quantities to persons in his employment or to neighbours, and if any question shall arise as to whether a dairy comes within this provision, such question shall be determined by the Board, whose decision shall be final. He proposed to insert, after the word "utensils" in paragraph (c), the word "vehicles," and to omit from the last paragraph the words "whether constructed before or after the passing of this Act." The proposed new by-laws would probably be more stringent than those already in existence. He had no objection to their applying to all dairies constructed after the passing of the Bill, but with regard to those now existing he thought it would be desirable to leave some discretion to the local authority as to whether the new by-laws should be enforced or not. The by-laws might enact some new regulations as to cubic space, and so on, which, if applied to existing dairies, might work harshly. He therefore proposed that the local authority should have an option in applying the new by-laws to existing dairies. If a local authority were unduly lenient the Board would, under subsection (4), have an opportunity of stepping in and saying that the by-law must be enforced.

Amendment moved— In page 4, line 20, after the word 'utensils,' to insert the word 'vehicles,' and in line 25 to leave out from the word 'dairies' to the word 'but' in line 26."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

LORD PENTLAND said he was advised, and he shared the view himself, that it would be undesirable to make this discrimination between old and new dairies. Moreover, it would be an invidious burden to lay upon the local authorities. Then there was the practical objection that in the administration of the Public Health Act it was not always easy to define a new dairy, and numerous administrative difficulties would arise if the noble Earl's Amendment was inserted.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH thought that as there was to be a certificate of registration that would give the necessary protection, because if a dairy was to be interfered with it could only be on good cause shown. On the whole, he thought it would be wise on the part of his noble friend to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE EARL OF DUNMORE moved to amend the last paragraph of the subsection by inserting, after the word "quantities," the words "and for their own consumption." He said the paragraph was necessary in the interests of the crofting districts, but there should be protection against the middleman collecting milk from various sources and reselling it.

Amendment moved— In page 4, line 28,after the word 'quantities' to insert the words 'and for their own consumption.'"—(The Earl of Dunmore.)

LORD PENTLAND accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.

Clause 9:

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN proposed to amend this clause, which ran— If any local authority has reason to believe that the provisions of this Act or of the by-laws made in terms thereof are not carried out in any district from which milk is consigned to the district of the said local authority, the said local authority may apply to the Board, who shall inquire into the circumstances and shall take such proceedings as may be necessary for securing that the provisions of the Act and of the by-laws are carried Out, by inserting, after the words "the said local authority" where they first occurred, the words "the said local authority may intimate the same, together with a statement of their reasons to the local authority of such district, and, if not satisfied by the proceedings taken." The noble Earl was proceeding to give his reasons for moving the Amendment when

LORD PENTLAND pointed out that the Amendment standing next in his (Lord Pentland's) name met the noble Earl's point.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said this was so, and he would not, therefore, move the Amendment standing in his name.

LORD PENTLAND then moved his Amendment.

Amendment moved— In page 5, line 29, after the second 'authority' to insert the words 'shall make complaint to the local authority of the district from which the milk is consigned, and if the cause of complaint be not removed within a reasonable time.'"—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10:

LORD PENTLAND moved a new subsection giving the Board power to make regulations under the Public Health Act, 1907, for the prevention of danger arising to public health from the importation of milk intended for sale for human consumption.

Amendment moved— In page 5, at the beginning of the clause, to insert '(1) The Board shall make regulations under the Public Health (Regulations as to Food) Act, 1907, for the prevention of danger arising to public health from the importation of milk intended for sale for human consumption.'"—(Lord Pentland.)

LORD CLINTON asked the noble Lord whether he would amend his new subsection by inserting, after the word "milk," the words "and milk products." He thought there should also be protection against butter and other products of milk coming from abroad.

LORD PENTLAND said the subsection was the ipsissima verba of the subsection in the English Act. But if the noble Lord would put his Amendment on the Paper he would consider it.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH asked whether the noble Lord in charge of the Bill would accept here a condition of consultation with the Board of Agriculture. He would leave the drafting till a later stage if the noble Lord would accept the condition in principle.

LORD PENTLAND

Certainly.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD LEITH OF FYVIE said this clause provided that the Board might from time to time make such general or special orders as they thought fit for the purpose of carrying the Bill into effect, including, inter alia, the following purpose— (d) The prohibition or regulation of the mixing of the milk in one such churn or vessel with the milk in another such churn or vessel. He moved to omit paragraph (d), which he described as a ridiculous and ludicrous provision which could serve no useful purpose.

Amendment moved— In page 6, lines 6 to 8, to leave out paragraph (d)."—(Lord Leith of Fyvie).

LORD PENTLAND said that the prohibition or regulation of the mixing of milk was only one of the subjects on which the Bill proposed to give the Local Government Board power to make general orders, and until the form of those orders was seen he could not understand the noble Lord taking objection. He might add that the paragraph was taken from the English Bill, and that he had been urged to insert it in the Scottish Bill.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE said he had no doubt the noble Lord had been advised by his experts to insert some words of this kind; but would he give the Committee some idea of the particular danger the paragraph was intended to meet? Their Lordships were discussing the other evening the desirability of marking bags in which hops were packed in order to show the origin of the hops; but did circumstances ever arise in which it was desirable that the milk of a particular cow should be identified so that its origin could be traced? That was what this provision came to.

LORD PENTLAND said it was desirable that milk from a suspected cow should not be mixed with other milk. The section only gave power to the Local Government Board to make regulations on this as well as on other subjects; it was not enactment of itself.

LORD CLINTON held that it was important that the paragraph should be retained, and that there should be power to prevent the mixing of milk from an infected cow or an infected dairy with fresh milk.

LORD PENTLAND said the provision was intended to prevent not only infected or suspected milk being mixed with fresh milk, but to prevent stale milk in certain circumstances being mixed.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD PENTLAND moved to amend paragraph (e)— (e) The labelling of the receptacles of milk for sale for human consumption where the milk is sold otherwise than in its natural state, by leaving out all words after the word "consumption."

Amendment moved— In page 6, line 10, to leave out from the word 'consumption' to the end of the clause."—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 11:

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 12:

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND moved the addition of a new subsection.

Amendment moved— In page 6, line 25, after the word 'milk' to insert: '(2) Where milk is sold or exposed or kept for sale, it shall be presumed to be sold or exposed or kept for sale for human consumption, or for use in the manufacture of products for human consumption unless the contrary is proved.'"—(Lord Pentland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 13:

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN moved to delete subsection (1), which ran— Any dairyman who, after becoming aware that any animal in his dairy is suffering from tuberculosis with emaciation, or from tuberculosis of the udder, or from any disease liable to infect or contaminate the milk, or is giving tuberculous milk, keeps or permits to be kept such animal in any cowshed along with cows in milk shall be guilty of an offence under this Act, and to substitute a new subsection which, he said, would place the onus probandi on the dairyman.

Amendment moved— In page 6, lines 26 to 31, to leave out subsection (1), and to insert the words 'Any dairyman who keeps or permits to be kept along with cows in milk any cow suffering from tuberculosis with emaciation or from tuberculosis of the udder or from any disease liable to infect or contaminate the milk or which is giving tuberculous milk, shall be guilty of an offence under this Act, unless he shows to the satisfaction of the court that he was not aware of, and could not with reasonable diligence have obtained knowledge of the diseased condition of the cow aforesaid.'"—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

LORD ASHBOURNE thought the new subsection went too far. It was a serious matter to make it a criminal offence if the dairyman did not exhaust all scientific means of knowledge.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN could not see that his proposal placed any great hardship on the dairyman.

LORD PENTLAND expressed the opinion that the provision in the Bill was quite strong enough.

THE EARL OF HALSBURY disagreed with his noble and learned friend Lord Ashbourne. In ordinary circumstances, where the commission of an offence was dangerous to health the plea of ignorance was not accepted. He thought the words "could not with reasonable diligence have obtained knowledge of" were quite reasonable.

LORD SALTOUN supported Lord Camperdown's Amendment on the ground that it placed the onus of proof on the right person.

LORD PENTLAND deprecated placing this large class of people under so severe an obligation. It was not as if this was the only protection afforded by the Bill. There were large powers of inspection.

LORD SALTOUN said that as the Bill had been introduced for the purpose of protecting the public their Lordships should make absolutely certain that it did so.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN observed that when the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland was speaking on the subject of licences he adopted an exactly opposite line of argument.

LORD LEITH OF FYVIE could imagine a considerable amount of friction arising under the Amendment. In the case of small dairymen there should be a little leniency.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH said the Amendment was a protection to the man who was honest and straight in his business, and placed difficulties in the way of a man who by carelessness did not know what he ought to have known. He did not think there would be any objection to the Amendment if the noble Lord could see his way to accept it.

LORD PENTLAND said he must bow to the will of the majority.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PENTLAND moved to omit subsection (2), which ran— It shall be the duty of any dairyman selling or otherwise disposing of any animal which to his knowledge is so suffering or diseased, or is giving tuberculous milk as aforesaid, forthwith to give notice of such disposal to the medical officer of health of the district in which the dairy is situated, specifying the destination of the animal and stating the name and address of the person to whom it is consigned. Should such animal be consigned to any place without that district, the medical officer of health, on receiving the aforesaid notice, shall forthwith communicate the facts to the medical officer of health of the district of the intended destination of the animal.

Amendment moved— In page 6, line 32 to line 2 on page 7, to leave out subsection (2)."—(Lord Pentland).

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 14:

LORD LEITH OF FYVIE moved to amend Clause 14.— 14. If any person resident at or employed in connection with any dairy, or who resides in the same house as any person so employed, shall suffer from any illness attended by sore throat or diarrhœa, or shall show symptoms of any infectious disease, the dairyman, on becoming aware thereof, shall forthwith report to the medical officer of health for the district the existence of such illness, by omitting the words "shall suffer from any illness attended by sore throat, diarrhœa or." He thought the clause without these words covered all that was necessary.

Amendment moved— In page 7, lines 5 and 6, to leave out the words 'shall suffer from any illness attended by sore throat, diarrhœa, or.' "—(Lord Leith of Fyvie.)

LORD PENTLAND accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15 agreed to.

Clause 16:

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17:

LORD LEITH OF FYVIE moved an Amendment requiring that the medical officer of a district when he inspected a dairy on suspicion of infection should be accompanied by a veterinary inspector. He thought this would be an economy of time and save friction.

Amendment moved— In page 8, line 1, after the word 'dairy' to insert the words 'accompanied by a veterinary inspector.' "—(Lord Leith of Fyvie.)

LORD PENTLAND said that as a matter of practice it would considerably hamper a medical officer if he might not, when passing a dairy and in the midst of his other work, make an inspection without being accompanied by a veterinary inspector. If the Amendment were inserted a man might refuse to allow the medical officer to inspect the dairy unless accompanied by a veterinary inspector. He agreed that where a veterinary inspector was available, and where it was necessary he should accompany the medical officer, but the insertion of the words proposed would interface with the practical working of the clause.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH could not think that the noble Lord meant to press this clause exactly as it stood. In its present form it was mandatory on the medical officer to examine the dairy and— every person engaged in the service thereof, or resident upon the premises, or who may be resident in any premises where any person employed in such dairy may reside. Surely it would be sufficient if the medical officer were given a discretion to examine any person. He begged so to move.

Amendment moved— In page 8, line 18, to leave out the words 'every person engaged,' and to insert the words 'such persons as he may consider necessary.'"—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

LORD PENTLAND explained that the words were taken bodily out of the Public Health Act, 1897. No question of any difficulty on the point had been raised before.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH said it should be remembered that under this Bill the definition of "dairy" was being extended and included farms. The clause as it stood, coupled with the definition of dairy given in the Bill, would oblige the medical officer to inspect every child of every farm labourer employed upon the premises even though the place of residence might be half a mile away. It seemed to him that no child and no farm labourer could escape inspect him. But perhaps the noble Lord would take a note of the point and consult with his advisers.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

Clause 17,as amended, agreed to.

Clause 18 agreed to.

Clause 19:

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 20:

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

Clause 20, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 21:

Consequential Amendment agreed to.

Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 22 to 24 agreed to.

Clause 25:

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN called attention to this clause, which provided that all expenses incurred by the local authority for the purposes of this Act should be chargeable on the public health general assessment leviable under the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897. He asked what contribution the Government were going to make from the Exchequer towards the expenses of the Bill? As he pointed out on the Second Reading of the Bill, this clause introduced a very large and important subject. The Bill had to be taken in connection with the Order of the Board of Agriculture of May last. They had no power to limit the very large expense which would be placed upon the ratepayers by that Order, but this Bill was in their Lordships' hands and before they agreed to Clause 25 he thought they ought to be satisfied that the Government were going to make some considerable contribution towards the cost of carrying out these provisions. He contended that the purification of milk was a matter which concerned the whole country, and the cost ought to be borne by the taxpayers and not by the ratepayers. Perhaps the noble Lord would tell the Committee whether the Government had come to any conclusion with regard to this matter. Although their Lordships might approve of the provisions of this Bill, yet if nothing were done to assist the ratepayers they would have to consider whether it was really justifiable to impose such an enormous expense upon them.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (EARL CARRINGTON) said that on the face of it everyone would be inclined to agree with Lord Camperdown, but it was a matter which required very careful consideration. If the English Bill did not become law the Order, as agreed with the Local Government Board, would not come into force in England. But if the English Bill became law the Order would apply to England, Scotland, and Wales. If the Scottish Bill only was passed then the Order would apply to Scotland only. In those circumstances the matter did require careful consideration, and he was not prepared to give an answer off-hand to the noble Earl's question. He was convinced that the noble Earl would be the last person to wish to create an impasse.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said it was true that he would be the last person to wish to create an impasse, but, at the same time, he had received no answer to his question. If their Lordships parted with Clause 25 without having an understanding with the Government the ratepayers would be liable for the whole of the expense. He wished to know what the Government proposed to do in the matter.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH questioned whether their Lordships were not engaged in discussing a matter of privilege.

LORD SALTOUN pointed out that his noble friend Lord Camperdown asked this question on the 14th instant when the Bill was read a second time. Therefore the request for information on this point was not a surprise sprung upon His Majesty's Government. They had had some days in which to consider the question, and might, he thought, have been prepared with an answer. It would seriously affect the passage of the Bill if no answer was forth-coming.

LORD PENTLAND said that if the noble Earl would defer his question and repeat it at a later stage he would endeavour to give him an answer.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE said the question raised by the noble Earl was a very important one. The Bill was a very stringent Bill, and would no doubt involve very large expenditure, which must fall on somebody's shoulders. His noble friend simply asked whether the whole of the expense would fall on the ratepayers or whether there was any prospect of their burden being alleviated. He hoped the noble Lord would be able to clear up the point on another occasion.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said that if he deferred his question it would be on the understanding that he would be allowed time to raise it on the Third Reading, if he was not satisfied with the Government's reply.

Clause 25 agreed to.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved the insertion of a new clause.

Amendment moved— After Clause 25, to insert the following new clause: '26. A warranty or invoice shall not be available as a defence to any proceedings under the Sale of Food and Drugs Acts, 1875 to 1907, where the article in respect of which the proceedings are taken is milk.'"—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

LORD PENTLAND accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH said he would not move his further new clause—viz.: 27. The Board shall make regulations under the Public Health (Regulations as to Food) Act, 1907, for the prevention of danger arising to public health from the importation of milk intended for sale for human consumption, as he understood it was covered by Lord Pentland's Amendment which had been inserted in Clause 10.

LORD PENTLAND

That is so.

Remaining Clauses agreed to.

Standing Committee negatived: Report of Amendments to be received on Thursday next, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 114.)