TRAWLING IN PROHIBITED AREAS (PREVENTION) BILL. (Hansard, 8 July 1909)

§ THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (LORD PENTLAND)
My Lords, your Lordships will remember a discussion on this subject which took place at no more distant date than last November. At that time this Bill had been introduced in another place, but no progress was made with it last year. It was re-introduced at the beginning of this session and now comes before this House in a slightly altered form, but it comes here, so far as I am aware, and certainly according to what occurred in another place, as an agreed Bill. Both sections of opinion interested in this measure, the last stage in a somewhat long controversy, are agreed that the Bill represents a desirable and even a necessary step in the matter.
Your Lordships are aware that by an Act of some twenty years ago the Fishery Board for Scotland acquired powers to prohibit by by-law the method of fishing called trawling in certain areas of the sea off the coast of Scotland. These areas were closed by by-law after the passing of that Act, and while for several years that closure was effective, about five years after the by-law was first enacted a foreign trawler appeared in the Moray Firth. There have always been accidental and occasional foreign trawlers fishing in the Firth. About the years 1897 and 1898 and onwards to 1900 a practice sprung up of fishing in the Moray Firth by British subjects, who, in order to effect this purpose, registered their trawlers under a foreign flag. This difficulty increased as 208 years went on, and after every effort had been employed by administrative means and by carrying out the statutory powers then in force to check the evil, the matter was carried to the High Court in 1906, and the High Court declared the law to be that it was illegal for foreigners to fish in these prohibited areas. That was declared to be the law, but, as your Lordships are well aware, it was not possible to enforce that law as against the subjects of other nations.
This is a Bill to effectively close these waters. They are closed, let me say parenthetically, in the general interest—in the interest of the protection of the supply of fish in the North Sea; and this closure has, as a subsidiary result, the effect of giving some protection to the line fishermen who dwell on the shores of these waters. This closure is infringed, in the first place, by occasional genuine foreign trawlers, and, in the second place, to a very much larger extent—to an extent so large as to constitute practically almost the whole of the evil—by those pseudo foreign trawlers which are financed and in many cases owned entirely by British subjects or British companies fishing under a foreign flag. There is another feature of the position which must be noticed and it is this, that practically the whole of the fish caught by these pseudo foreign trawlers is landed at English ports. It is not landed at Scottish ports for the reason that the Act of 1889—the original foundation of this closure—prohibited the landing in Scottish ports of fish caught in these prohibited areas. The prohibition has been enforced, and no such fish is now landed at Scottish ports. But these trawlers are able to evade the law by being still permitted to land their fish at English ports.
The method of this Bill is to extend to English ports the prohibition of landing such fish which is now operative in Scotland. In the opinion of those concerned—and I have already mentioned that both sections of opinion unite in supporting this Bill, the details of which they have worked out—this will be an effectual step, and will succeed in preventing the illegal fishing which now goes on in the Moray Firth. A doubt has been expressed that the purpose of this Bill may be defeated by the development of what now goes on in a very small degree—namely, the catching of fish in 209 the Moray Firth and shipping them to foreign ports. Such fishing as goes on under those conditions—that is to say, of landing at foreign ports—is occasional, is seasonal, and is confined to certain classes of fish not, properly speaking, the subject of trawling. The main object of these steam trawlers is to catch flat fish, soles, plaice, and other fish of that character which are valuable in the markets. But there is a second reason which is held by those having great experience and authority in this matter to be, if not conclusive, almost conclusive, against the probability of the establishment of any such industry as a regular fishing in the Moray Firth. It is known as a fact by those who hold this opinion that the Moray Firth is not prolific or extensive enough to afford the basis of the establishment of an industry simply to fish the Moray Firth. To come across from ports on the other side of the North Sea, or even to come from Grimsby, and to carry the fish, not to English markets, but across the North Sea involves not only time but extra expense, and to support such extra charges the fishing in the Moray Firth would have to be far more regular and far more productive than it has hitherto proved to be. Though it is, of course, not possible to exclude altogether a doubt on this point, all the probabilities indicate that the proceeding proposed under this Bill will be effectual for the purpose in view.
The controversy has been a long one, and it is a satisfaction to His Majesty's Government to find that the two parties to the controversy are agreed that this Bill deserves consideration and should pass into law, as being, if not the final stage in this controversy, at any rate an obvious and necessary next step to be taken. I understand that there is no general desire that the discussion of this Bill should be prolonged at this stage, and therefore I have ventured to confine myself to outlining the situation. If the information which I have given is too scanty, I shall be glad to supplement it, but I understand that there may be Amendments proposed in Committee, and possibly that may afford a more convenient opportunity for going into any of the details which, in your Lordships' opinion, still require consideration. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.

§ THE EARL OF HALSBURY
My Lords, I do not rise for the purpose of placing any obstruction in the way of the progress of this Bill. At the same time I cannot help thinking that indirectly there is a very serious matter involved in the Bill which requires consideration. I think it becomes very important in these days to see what are the principles upon which it is supposed that foreign vessels can come into the Moray Firth and fish. The purpose of this Bill, I think, is one to which all would agree, and, as I have said, I do not speak for the purpose of obstruction in any way; but it has to be remembered that the whole principle upon which the idea of the three-mile limit was based was the right that every nation possessed to protect its own shores. The area over which that right of protection existed was limited to the ultima vis armorum, and it would be absurd to say that the ultima vis armorum was now limited to three miles. There is no apparent admission by this country of the limitation of the area within which we can actually prohibit; but it may be hereafter used as an argument that we were so well aware of the limit that international law would place upon the right of prohibition that this indirect means of preventing it had been resorted to. I only wish to say that, so far as I am concerned, I have never myself, as a Judge, admitted that the three-mile limit is one that international law recognises. It is not the limit which some other countries themselves adopt and insist upon. But, be that as it may, as long as the principle upon which the right of protection to our shores exists is limited to the ultima vis armorum it is necessary to make a protest, in passing such legislation as this, against its being taken as an admission that we do acquiesce in that limitation, if it is not a subject of agreement, as it is in some cases between two other countries. There is no international law which would prevent a much larger limit being taken if the public interest required it.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD LOREBURN)
My Lords, I shall forbear from saying anything at all about the three-mile limit, for the reason that I think we should walk very warily in this matter. Many of our best fishing districts are within ten miles of the coast of our neighbours. The question is not merely one of what is to happen to our fisheries within ten miles of our coast, but of how many of our own 211 fishermen may be prevented from going to their present fishing grounds within ten miles of a foreign coast if we seek to extend our jurisdiction beyond the three-mile limit. It is a very serious matter, and we ought not lightly to pass from any convention or any fishing custom that has been hitherto observed. It is delicate ground and I do not wish to commit myself regarding it, but merely to safeguard the House from expressing any opinion in favour of extending the three-mile limit.

§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE
My Lords, in the very few words which I wish to address to the House I shall not touch upon the immensely important question of international law raised by my noble and learned friend beside me and discussed by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. I venture to think that the general feeling of the House will be that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack gave us good advice when he suggested that we should walk warily in dealing with that matter. I shall endeavour to walk warily by altogether avoiding the dangerous ground. The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack a few days ago rather complained of our pedantry on this side of the House for desiring to extend to Scotland legislation which we regard as suitable to England, but which, in his view, was not equally applicable across the border. Here is a case in which Scottish legislation is being applied to the whole of the United Kingdom. I congratulate the noble Lord in charge of the Bill, because this really is a triumph of the policy of the Scottish Office over other competing policies which have found favour at different times. I agree in thinking that your Lordships would do well to offer no obstacle to the passing of this Bill. It is, at any rate, an attempt to extricate us from a most difficult and embarrassing position.
The position, roughly speaking, is this. Under our municipal law we are unable to prevent foreign trawlers from frequenting the waters of the Moray Firth, although that municipal law renders liable to very severe pains and penalties British trawlers found fishing in these waters. That is naturally regarded, particularly by our own fishermen, as an intolerable situation, and the time certainly has come for endeavouring to find some means of escape 212 from it. The impatience with which the present state of things is regarded is no doubt increased by the fact that, as the noble Lord observed, a good many of these so-called foreign trawlers are not really foreign trawlers at all, but British vessels masquerading for improper purposes as foreign fishing boats. I suppose that at first sight we should all of us be inclined to say that the best mode of escaping from these difficulties would be that some international agreement might be come to as to the conditions under which fishermen of all kinds might resort to the waters of the Moray Firth. But, of course, we all know that, while it is a very simple matter to talk about international arrangements for such a purpose, an international arrangement which we should be in a position to accept would be by no means a simple thing to obtain. As was said by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, our fishermen frequent waters in other parts of the world with regard to which the adjoining territorial Powers hold no doubt very much the same kind of views as those which we hold with regard to the Moray Firth, and there can be no doubt that if we were to endeavour to bring about a transaction with the foreign countries concerned we should have to meet counterclaims on behalf of their fishermen which would be of a very inconvenient nature and which might result in a bargain by no means favourable to our own fishing industry.
This Bill proposes to put a stop to fishing by foreigners in the Moray Firth by means of arrangements for excluding any fish which they may catch in those waters from admission to British ports. Such fish is already excluded from Scottish ports; the exclusion is to be extended to British ports. I am bound to say that while I am in favour of making this attempt, I do not feel very sanguine as to the amount of success which is likely to attend it. The remedy seems to me rather a clumsy remedy, and I am afraid it may prove to be an ineffectual remedy. I should be inclined to say that perhaps the strongest argument in favour of the Government's proposal is that by making it we shall, to a certain extent, strengthen our own hands if we should hereafter have to approach foreign countries in order to come to some arrangement with them. This Bill is, at any rate, an earnest that we ourselves are doing all we can to put an end to what we regard as an undoubted abuse.
213 But, my Lords, when we come to the machinery set up in the Bill it does seem to me that there may be very considerable difficulties in applying it successfully. In the first place, there is the possibility—and I am afraid we must regard it as a possibility—that fish taken by these illegal trawlers may be marketed in foreign ports. The noble Lord—I was glad to hear him say so—has apparently satisfied himself that the danger of this kind of evasion is not such a real danger as many people suppose; but in these days when fish is carried from place to place in very fast steamers, and when, as we know, ice is used for the purpose of packing fish, it does seem highly probable that fish which is excluded from a British port will be taken to the nearest foreign port, and there are ports available for that purpose.
There is also the difficulty, which seems to me to be a real one, of identifying these poaching vessels. The whole machinery for their identification rests with the Fishery Board for Scotland. I presume the Fishery Board will keep a cruiser or a gunboat of some kind in the waters of the Moray Firth. That gunboat will have to endeavour to watch the whole of the waters—something like 2,000 square miles—in the Moray Firth; and it will have to satisfy itself—those are the words of the clause—that these boats are really engaged in illegal practices. That seems to me to be no easy task. The boat once identified is to be reported to the Customs authorities, and the Customs authorities will then destroy or confiscate the fish when it is landed at a British port. That part is simple enough, but where I foresee considerable difficulty is in the process of identification by the agents of the Fishery Board. These seem to me to be real difficulties. I shall be glad if, in Committee, or at some other time, the noble Lord is able to show us that they do not exist. I certainly do not desire to offer any objection to the passing of the Bill. It is an attempt to make the best of a very difficult situation, and I sincerely hope that the attempt may be more successful than some of us are inclined to believe it will be.