HL Deb 01 December 1909 vol 4 cc1402-10

Commons Amendments considered (according to order).

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL

I understand that there are two Amendments to be moved by Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, and therefore perhaps it would be for the convenience of the House that the Commons Amendments should be put en bloc down to the point at which the noble Lord proposes to insert his Amendments.

Moved, That the Commons Amendments down to the words "save as otherwise expressly provided," on Page 2, be agreed to.—(Lord Hamilton of Dalzell.)

The Commons Amendments embraced in this Motion were—

[NOTE.—The references are to Bill No. (173.)]

Clause 1, page 1, line 8, after ("unions") insert ("which persons and bodies of persons are")

Clause 2, page 3, line 16, after subsection (6) insert the following new subsection—

(7) This section shall apply to an assurance company registered or having its head office in Ireland, subject to the following modifications:

References to the Supreme Court shall be construed as references to the Supreme Court of Judicature in Ireland, and references to the Paymaster-General shall be construed as references to the Accountant-General of the last-mentioned court.

Clause 3, page 3, line 25, after ("name") insert ("Provided that nothing in this section shall require the investments of any such fund to be kept separate from the investments of any other fund")

Clause 5, page 4, line 11, after ("condition") insert ("including a valuation of its liabilities")

Clause 13, page 7, line 1, leave out from ("that") to ("it") in line 4.

Clause 13, page 7, Clause 13, page 7, line 4, after ("statement") insert ("and other documents")

Clause 13, page 7, line 5, leave out ("the") and leave out ("of such companies or company")

Clause 13, page 7, line 7, after ("holders") insert ("nor in the case of a transfer to such policy-holders if the business transferred is not life assurance business or bond investment business")

Leave out clause 15.

Clause 24, page 11, line 1, after ("officer") insert ("or agent")

Clause 26, page 11, lines 16 and 17, leave out save as otherwise expressly provided")

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Commons Amendment.

Clause 27, page 11, line 24, after ("policy") insert ("Provided that where any person claiming "to be interested in a policy has given to the" company notice in writing of his interest, any "notice which is by this Act required to be sent to" policy holders shall also be sent to such person "at the address specified by him in his notice")

Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lard Hamilton of Dalzell.)

LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU had given notice to move, after "interest" in the Amendment, to "insert" and of his desire that notices should be sent to him at an address specified in the notice." The noble Lord said: I am in a difficulty with regard to this Amendment and the other Amendment standing in my name on the Paper, owing to the late period of the session at which we have arrived and to events which have happened during the last two or three days. I have no doubt whatever that if I could put your Lordships in possession of all the facts which I have at my disposal you would agree that on their merits these Amendments ought to be inserted. I would remind your Lordships of the position of this Bill. It came before this House for Second Reading in August. It was then debated at some length. Certain Amendments which were asked for by the life offices were subsequently agreed to, but a great many Amendments which were considered important were not accepted by His Majesty's Government. A week ago the Commons returned the Bill to your Lordships' House with certain Amendments, and those Amendments were in many cases a reversal of the undertaking given by the President of the Board of Trade to a deputation which waited upon him from the life offices. It may be pleaded, perhaps with reason, that the President of the Board of Trade had no alternative, but the very important interest on whose behalf I speak to-day have nothing to do with that. They maintain that unless these two Amendments are inserted in the Bill their position will be greatly prejudiced, and they would prefer to lose the Bill than that it should proceed without the Amendments. I have received a telegram to-day from the Life Association of Scotland, which comprises eleven offices domiciled in that country. They repeat what I have already told your Lordships, that unless the Amendments are carried they would far sooner that the Bill was dropped

And when I mention that on this occasion I speak for thirty-two out of thirty-five life assurance offices—twenty-four English and eleven Scottish—with a capital of £165,000,000 and an annual income of £20,000,000, you will see that the case I present is not without weight. On going through the books of one of the most prominent life offices it was found that in the case of 200 policies which had been issued no fewer than 235 notices had been lodged. These policies were not picked out, but were taken consecutively as entered in the company's register. In an ordinary life office there are from 10,000 to 15,000 such policies, so you see the enormous amount of work which will be placed, as the clause now stands, upon any company which wishes to amalgamate.

My second Amendment is to the new paragraph (g) inserted in Clause 31 by the Commons— (g) Any business carried on by an assurance company which under the provisions of any Special Act relating to that company is to be treated as life assurance business shall continue to be so treated, and shall not be deemed to be other business or a separate class of assurance business within the meaning of this Act. I propose to add, after the words "relating to that company," the words "or under its constitution." There are in London about twenty-two purely life offices, which conduct their business in a certain way legalised by Parliament. An exception to this case is the Norwich Union, which has a private Act of its own. The Board of Trade discovered late in the day that this private Act existed, and they have, by means of this clause, given a special exemption and monopoly to the Norwich Union which they have denied to other companies. I hold that rather than twenty-two companies should be brought into line with one, one company should be brought into line with the other twenty-two; I think justice demands that. The insertion of my Amendment would place these companies on the same basis as, and would not in any way prejudice, the Norwich Union. The companies consider these two Amendments to be of first-class importance, and if the Government choose to refuse to accept them the responsibility must rest on their heads. I shall wait with interest to hear what the noble Lord in charge of the Bill has to say; and I now move my first Amendment.

Amendment moved— After ("interest")in line 3 of the Amendment to insert ("and of his desire that notices should be ' sent to him at an address specified in the "notice")—(Lord Montagu of Beaulieu.)

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL

The noble Lord has said that this Amendment of the Commons is a reversal of some undertaking which was given by my right hon. friend to the life offices. I cannot admit that. This is a Bill dealing with a highly technical matter, in which a great number of different interests are involved, and the whole history of this Bill has been an endeavour by the Board of Trade to do substantial justice to each of these interests, and at the same time to do justice to the policy-holders in this country. The policy-holders, I need hardly say, must be the object of the utmost solicitude on the part of the Department and they must be the people whose interests must be kept first of all in view.

This particular Amendment was discussed in the House of Commons, and it was moved there in substantially the form in which the noble Lord now moves it. But as the result of discussion and in order to meet the objections of other interests, the Amendment was inserted in the form in which it appears in the House of Commons Amendments to this Bill. Now, what is this Commons Amendment? It requires that when amalgamation of two insurance companies takes place certain notices as to the proposed amalgamation or transfer of business shall be given to persons who have registered themselves with the company as being interested in policies. I do not understand that the noble Lord denies that it is absolutely right and proper that those notices should be sent out. Here are people who have lent or invested money or taken out a policy of insurance in certain companies, and if their security or their property is to be altered in any way it is obviously right that they should receive notice. What the noble Lord proposes in his Amendment is that these notices should only be sent out in cases where the person claiming to be interested in a policy has intimated his desire that notice should be so sent. There is not a very great difference between us so far as future policies are concerned, because it is obvious that if these words were put into the Bill any one sending such a notice would put these words into the notice and the thing would become a common form. But what it really amounts to is that the noble Lord wishes rather to trade upon the fact that a certain number of people who have already sent notices may not take the trouble of any future action in the matter, and by that means they would be deprived of the protection which we think it is right they should be given.

The Board of Trade cannot agree with that view, and in consequence I am unable to accept the noble Lord's Amendments. I would point out that owing to the late period of the session at which we have arrived it may be difficult to get any Amendment through another place, and for that reason I was particularly anxious that these Amendments should have been taken earlier. The noble Lord saw fit, when the Commons' Amendments came up the other night, to move that their consideration be adjourned, and that course was adopted. I was not in a position to prevent its being done; but I very much deprecate that a purely departmental Bill of this kind should not have been allowed to go through in the calmer atmosphere which then prevailed.

LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU

My sole object in moving the adjournment was to give a further opportunity for compromise.

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL

I do not think it did facilitate matters; and in view of the late period of the session, and the position of affairs at the present time, it would be difficult to induce the other House to accept Amendments, and, therefore, I hope they will not be insisted upon.

LORD SANDHURST

My Lords, I sympathise a great deal with the noble Lord's first Amendment, for I have no doubt that the requirement as to notice will create a good deal of difficulty in insurance offices. should the question of amalgamation come up. At the same time, I cannot think that the point is really so very important as to run the risk of losing the Bill, which I must say has a great deal to recommend it. As to the Norwich Union, I do not quite see how the power conferred upon it by an Act of Parliament could he withdrawn, because no doubt they would have already entered into many contracts. But seeing the period of the session at which we have arrived, I should greatly regret, although I sympathise with the noble Lord in the object he has in view, if any action we took to-night led to the loss of the Bill. In these circumstances I hope the noble Lord will not press the Amendment.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

I venture to join with the noble Lord in expressing the hope that nothing will be done to jeopardise the passing of this Bill. I do not think the arguments used by the noble Lord who moved the Amendment tended to show that it was one of first-class importance. The noble Lord, however, did make one remark which I thought seemed to indicate the trend of his mind in regard to the question generally. He told your Lordships that those whom he represented would not be sorry if the Bill did not pass, and if the result of pressing the Amendment would be to destroy the Bill. I must say that is not an object with which I can sympathise. I think it would be rather a calamity if this Bill—a departmental, and, to a large extent, non-contentious Bill—were to be made use of for that purpose which has commonly been called "filling up the cup."

With regard to the second Amendment standing in the name of the noble Lord, I am not sure that I am greatly in sympathy with the Commons Amendment as it stands. At the same time the statutory right which the Norwich Union possess is one which they have acquired at some expense to themselves and after going through the null of the two Houses of Parliament, and it scarcely seems right that by a side wind in a general Act you should take away from any person or corporation special privileges which have been granted to them and ratified by an Act of Parliament. For that reason I think your Lordships might very properly allow the exceptional position of the Norwich Union to be recognised. But when you go further than that and propose that a provision shall be inserted which amounts to enabling any existing insurance company, by simply calling together a meeting of its shareholders and making an alteration in its articles of association, to do that which Parliament has sanctioned in the case of the Norwich Union, then you are taking a step which goes a great deal further than the necessity or justice of the case demands. In view of the lateness of the session and the fact that these Amendments are not of first-class importance, I hope your Lordships will not imperil the passage of the Bill.

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL

I did not refer to the noble Lord's second Amendment because I did not understand that it was before the House. I only wish to endorse what fell from the noble Earl who has just sat down, and to say that the position of the Government is substantially the position the noble Earl has taken up. The Amendment regarding the Norwich Union would enable any company which made in its articles of association the alteration suggested, or which had such a clause in its articles of association, to drive a coach and four through the provisions of the Act of 1870, which requires life funds to be kept absolutely distinct from other funds. I therefore oppose that Amendment as well.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

Your Lordships will do well not to disregard the advice given to the House by the noble Earl the Lord Chairman. We have arrived at a moment when we have to consider not merely the intrinsic merits of the proposals which are submitted to us. As to those merits, speaking as one who has no pretention to expert knowledge, it seemed to me that Lord Montagu was able to make a strong case. He certainly was able to show the House that he had a considerable amount of backing for his proposal. But the situation is peculiar. We have to consider how we stand with regard to time. It is quite clear, from what the noble Earl who leads the House told us earlier in the evening with regard to another Bill, that to send any measure that comes to us to-day back to the other House of Parliament would be to decree the loss of that measure; and we cannot close our eyes to the fact that the political atmosphere at this moment is not very favourable to compromise. In these circumstances it certainly appears to me that any insistence on the part of the noble Lord upon his Amendment would probably be fatal to the Bill. Most of us do not desire that an untoward fate should overtake this Bill, and I would, therefore, counsel him, on those grounds and not on any ground connected with the strength or weakness of his case, not to insist on his Amendment.

LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU

After what the noble Marquess has said and in the circumstances in which we are placed I am afraid I have no alternative but to accept the position and withdraw my Amendments. But I would add that the large number of companies which I represent feel that they have been badly treated by the Government.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELL

I beg to move that the remaining Commons Amendments be agreed to.

Commons Amendments.

Clause 28, page 11, line 30, leave out from ("append") to the end of the clause and insert ("to such accounts, balance sheets, abstracts, statements, or other documents any note of the "Board of Trade thereon, and any correspondence in relation thereto")

Clause 30, page 12, leave out lines 13 and 14 and insert ("the expression annuites on human 'life' does not include superannuation allowances and annuities payable out of any fund applicable solely to the relief and maintenance of persons engaged, or who have been engaged, in any particular profession, trade, or employment, or of the dependents of such persons")

Clause 30, page 12, lines 29 and 30, leave out ("other than those relating to deposits")

Clause 31, page 13, line 11, after ("on") insert ("death (except death by accident only) or")

Clause 31, page 13, line 13, leave out ("except the contingency of fatal accident")

Clause 31, page 14, line 13, after ("apply" insert the following two new paragraphs

(g) Any business carried on by an assurance company which under the provisions of any Special Act relating to that company is to be treated as life assurance business shall continue to be so treated, and shall not be deemed to be other business or a separate class of assurance business within the meaning of this Act.

(h) In the case of a mutual company whose profits are allocated to members wholly or mainly by annual abatements of premium, the abstract of the report of the actuary on the financial condition of the company, prepared in accordance with the Fourth Schedule of this Act, may, notwithstanding anything in section five of this Act, be Made and returned at intervals not exceeding five years, provided that where such return is not made annually it shall include particulars as to the rates of abatement of premiums applicable to different classes or series of assurances allowed in each year during the period which has elapsed since the previous return under the Fourth Schedule.

Clause 32, page 14, line 17, leave out from("company") to ("to") in line 19.

Clause 32, page 14, lines 27 and 28, leave out ("twenty-fifth day of May nineteen hundred and nine") and insert ("passing of this Act")

Clause 33, page 15, leave out line 39, and insert ("passing of this Act")

Clause 33, page 15, line 40, after ("make") insert ("or keep")

Clause 34, page 16, line 37, after ("business") insert ("wholly or mainly")

Clause 35, page 18, lines 29 and 30, leave out ("twenty-fifth day of May nineteen hundred and nine") and insert ("passing of this Act")

Clause 36, page 19, line 16, after ("unions") insert ("and may, on the application of an un registered society, extend to the society the exemption conferred by this Act on registered friendly societies, if it appears to the Board, after consulting the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies that the society is one to which it is inexpedient that the provisions of this Act should apply")

Clause 37, page 19, line 22, leave out ("or")and after ("grandchild") insert ("brother or sister")

Clause 37, page 19, line 35, after ("expenses") insert ("and any such policy shallenure for the benefit of the person for whose benefit it was effected or his assigns")

Clause 37, page 20, line 8, after ("a") insert ("mutual")

Clause 37, line 9, leave out ("unless") and insert ("if")

Clause 37, line 12, after ("satisfied") insert ("on a poll being taken") and leave out ("one-fourth") and insert ("fifty-five per cent."),

Clause 37, line 13, leave out ("object") and insert ("over sixteen years of age agree") and leave out from ("conversion") to ("and") in line 14.

Clause 39, page 20, line 41, leave out ("January") and insert ("July"), and after ("ten") insert ("except that as respects section thirty-six it shall come into operation on the passing thereof")