THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREMy Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government—(l) Whether they will now consent to present to Parliament the Return with reference to proceedings in cases of cattle-driving which was moved for on 18th March last; and (2) whether they will lay before Parliament the evidence upon which they rely as showing the causes of and motives underlying cattle-driving referred to by the Lord Privy Seal on 18th March last.
LORD DENMANMy Lords, I am informed that it would be possible to give a Return by counties showing (1) the name of the county; (2) the number of cattle drives; (3) the number of persons convicted or bound over; and, with regard to occupations, column (4) would show who were farmers, (5) who were farmers' sons, (6) who were labourers, and (7) other occupations. But, as I think was said in a previous debate, a difficulty at once arises when it is attempted to ascertain the exact value of the holdings of the several offenders 593 in particular cases. I am informed by the police that they have no information which would lead them to accept the view held by the noble Earl that cattle-driving is carried on, not by poor men, but by well-to-do farmers desiring to add to the extent of their already considerable farms. On the contrary, the police believe that the vast majority of those concerned are poor farmers, men who have small and uneconomic holdings and wish to have larger holdings. There is one other piece of information afforded by the police which may be of interest to the noble Earl. Of 167 persons who have been bound to the peace, a rough analysis made by the constabulary shows that 108 were farmers, thirty were farmers sons, eleven were labourers, herds, &c., nine were artisans, four were shopkeepers two were journalists, and the three remaining were described as of miscellaneous occupations. I think it is obvious that the police, with the possible exception of the cattle-drivers themselves, are better able to give an opinion on this point than anybody else; and it does seem to me that we should be content to abide by the opinion they give on the question.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREIt is difficult to realise whether or not a Return in the form promised will be of any use. I will be glad to see it, however, and I thank the noble Lord for granting it. But I hope he will not have a grievance if we are subsequently discontented with what we have got. We recognise, of course, that the evidence of the police is valuable, but we must be forgiven if we think that the evidence of the people living in the districts is valuable, too, and ought not to be neglected.