OLD-AGE PENSIONS ACT. (Hansard, 21 October 1908)

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
, who had given notice to ask whether Treasury instructions issued in regard to the Old-Age Pensions Act are held to have the force of regulations; and, if so, whether such instructions will be laid on the Table of the House," said: Your Lordships will remember that under the Old-Age Pensions Act a large part of the administration is to be effected by means of regulations which were to be drawn jointly by the Treasury, the Post Office, and the Local Government Board. A certain set of regulations have been promulgated and have been laid on the 1129 Table in due course according to the provisions of the Act. But the Treasury has issued certain instructions. I am not now speaking of instructions to servants or officials of the Treasury—that is a different matter altogether—but of instructions which are issued to pension committees and sub-committees, and also, indirectly, to county clerks. I want to know whether those instructions are held to have the force of regulations, because if so it would appear that they ought to be laid upon the Table, and if they are not to have the force of regulations then I should like to know whether they have any force at all.

LORD FITZMAURICE
The Question that my noble friend has asked is a very natural one because it relates to a matter which is of very great interest and importance to every authority under the Pensions Act in the country, and is being, undoubtedly, very closely watched and for obvious reasons, by them. Under the Pensions Act, as my noble friend has pointed out, there are certain regulations which are made under subsections 1 to 3 of Section 10 of the Act which deal with a very great number of important matters in the administration of the Act, or at least mainly deal with important questions in the administration of the Act by those authorities. It stands to reason that those authorities, in administering the Act, will incur certain expense, and the question has immediately arisen whether the local authorities are going to be kept in pocket by the Treasury, or whether they, in the first instance, have to bear the pecuniary burden and then, as in other instances, be recouped by the Treasury.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
Is not that done in a regulation and not by instructions?

LORD FITZMAURICE
I am coming to that. I am only explaining, in the first instance, what the regulations are. It stands to reason that there must be some method and form in regard to the payment and repayment of these sums, and it is in regard to this matter of the repayment of the sums by the Treasury that these instructions have been given. They are not regulations under subsections 1 to 3 of Section 10 of 1130 the Act, and therefore, they do not come within the rule which my noble friend has mentioned, viz., that they ought to be laid before Parliament. But a copy of the instructions is being presented to the other House, and as I have said they deal exclusively with the amount of the administration expenses of the committees, which may be charged against the Votes of the House of Commons, and the manner in which such expenses are to be paid. It is not usual in a case of this kind, which deals with a purely financial matter, for a document of that kind to be laid before this House. That I am informed on high authority. But the instructions are going to be laid before the other House, and at the same time I shall be exceedingly glad, on behalf of the Treasury, to communicate a copy of the instructions to my noble friend, if he desires to see them, at once.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
The noble Earl has not answered the second part of my Question. As these instructions are not regulations and it is not necessary to lay them as he says on the Table of this House, what force, if any, have those instructions? They are not regulations under the Act. In what way has the Act authorised the issue of those instructions; and those instructions, being, as I know them to be, not merely relative to finance, but giving directions not only to pension committees and sub-committees, but also to officials of the county councils, have they any force?

LORD FITZMAURICE
I was in hope I had made that clear. The Treasury has power to issue instructions under the general power which the Board has in all cases to give instructions of that kind where it is dealing with monies voted by Parliament. The Treasury is the great financial office of the country, and if my noble friend will refer to subsection 4 of Section 10 he will find that the matter is dealt with.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
But the money is the money of county councils; it is not public money.

LORD FITZMAURICE
The instructions are drawn up to regulate the repayment to the county councils of 1131 money spent in the first instance by them, and, of course, it is entirely to the advantage of the county council to have those instructions issued by the Treasury. The county councils—I am speaking, for a moment, as a county councillor—naturally desire to get the money back as soon as they possibly can, and to be informed at the very earliest day as to what method they are to pursue in order to get that money back.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
I will not pursue the matter further now, but shall probably take an early opportunity of calling your Lordships' attention to these instructions before they were issued to county councils. I received one myself as chairman of a county council, and I merely wanted to know whether there is any necessity on my part to pay any attention to them.

LORD FITZMAURICE
The answer to that is that the county councils desire to get their money back, and to get it back as soon as possible. It is entirely in their own interests to comply as rapidly as possible with the instructions which have been issued by the Treasury with a view to getting the whole of this matter forward as quickly as possible.

§ THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND
Allow me to ask the noble Lord what power has the Treasury to demand advances from county councils. The noble Lord says that these instructions are for the repayment of certain monies spent by the county councils. What I want to know is, what authority the Treasury has to command money to be advanced by the county councils.

LORD FITZMAURICE
I believe the Treasury take the view that the sections of the Act to which I have referred, and the Act of Parliament as a whole, gives them the power of making that regulation, but if either of my noble friends has any doubt on the question he is, of course, fully justified in raising it in this House, and I shall do my best to give him a further reply.