HL Deb 30 November 1908 vol 197 cc1035-44

Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

On Question, Bill read 3a.

THE LORD STEWARD (Earl BEAUCHAMP)

explained that his first Amendment was of a temporary character, and applied to those children who had been put out to nurse before the passing of this Bill.

Amendment moved— In page 2, line 31, after the word 'thereunder,' to insert the words 'Subject as aforesaid, this part of this Act shall apply to an infant whose nursing and maintenance has been undertaken for reward before the passing of this Act, in like manner as it applies to an infant whose nursing and maintenance has been so undertaken after the commencement of this Act, and as if any notice given under the Infant Life Protection Act, 1897, had been a notice given under this part of this Act.' "—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Verbal Amendment to Clause 3 agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

moved to amend subsection (2) of Clause 17— (2) For the purposes of this section a person shall be deemed to have caused or encouraged the seduction or prostitution (as the case may be) of a girl who has been seduced or become a prostitute if he has knowingly allowed the girl to consort with, or to enter or continue in the employment of, any prostitute or person of notoriously immoral character, by omitting the word "notoriously" and inserting the word "known." He said the Amendment had been submitted to, and approved by, the Lord Chief Justice.

Amendment moved— In page 11, line 6, to leave out the word 'notoriously,' and to insert the word 'known.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE

was advised that "notoriously" was the word wanted, as it meant generally known, whereas "known" would mean known to nobody in particular. But as the Lord Chief Justice had approved of the Amendment he would not press his objection.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

said his proposed new subsection to Clause 38 was chiefly of the character of his first Amendment.

Amendment moved— In page 23, line 14, after the word 'person,' to insert the following new subsection: '(3) This part of this Act shall apply in the case of a child or young person who has before the commencement of this Act been committed to the care of a relative or other fit person by an order made under the Prevention of Cruelty to Children Act, 1904, as if the order had been made under this part of this Act.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

EARL BEAUCHAMP

moved to amend subsection (3) of Clause 58— (3) Where a child, apparently of the age of twelve or thirteen years, who has not previously been convicted, is charged before a Court of summary jurisdiction with an offence punishable in the case of an adult by penal servitude or a less punishment, and the Court is satisfied that the child should be sent to a certified school but, having regard to the special circumstances of the case, should not be sent to a certified reformatory school, and is also satisfied that the character and antecedents of the child are such that he will not exercise an evil influence over the other children in a certified industrial school, the Court may order the child to be sent to a certified industrial school, having previously ascertained that the managers are willing to receive the child, by leaving out the words "Court of summary jurisdiction" and inserting the words "Petty Sessional Court." He reminded the House that their Lordships had decided, in Committee, that Courts of summary jurisdiction unless they were Petty Sessional Courts should not have jurisdiction to order a child to be sent to an industrial school.

Amendment moved— In page 30, line 29, to leave out the words 'Court of summary jurisdiction,' and to insert the words 'Petty Sessional Court.' "—(Earl Beauchamp.)

EARL BEAUCHAMP

moved a number of drafting Amendments to Clause 74, the object of which was, he explained, to transpose the definition of Local authority from subsection (5) to subsection (7). It was thought to be more convenient that it should appear there than in the fifth subsection.

Drafting Amendments to Clause 74 agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

moved to amend subsection (10) of the same clause— (10) The local authority responsible for the maintenance of a youthful offender or child in a certified school under this section shall be responsible for his maintenance in the school in which he is for the time being detained, notwithstanding that having been originally ordered to be sent to a reformatory school he is subsequently transferred to an industrial school or having been originally ordered to be sent to an industrial school he is subsequently transferred to or ordered by a Court to be sent to a reformatory school— by omitting the words "in the school in which he is for the time being detained" and inserting the words "in the event of his transfer to another certified school." This subsection was only intended to cover those cases where a youthful offender or a child, having been sent to one school, was afterwards transferred to another. Their Lordships would see that the words in the subsection as it at present stood were open to a wider construction.

Amendment moved— In page 43, lines 17 and 18, to leave out the words 'in the school in which he is for the time being detained,' and to insert the words 'in the event of his transfer to another certified school.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Consequential Amendment agreed to.

Drafting Amendments to Clause 92 agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

moved to amend the provision in Clause 105, that— A child or young person in detention pursuant to the directions of the Secretary of State may, at any time, be discharged by the Secretary of State on licence— by deleting the words "child or young." As this clause dealt with cases of prolonged detention of a child who had been guilty, perhaps, of some serious offence, the child when released would be a great deal over sixteen years of age. It was, therefore, desirable to amend the provision in the manner proposed.

Amendment moved— In page 59, line 25, to leave out the words 'child or young.' "—(Earl Beauchamp).

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

said the meaning of the new subsection which he proposed to insert in Clause 111 was clear upon the face of it. It was thought that there might be places which might not be able to make the necessary arrangements before the Act came into force, and this subsection would enable the Secretary of State to postpone the coming into operation of this section as regards those places. He could give the House a pledge, on behalf of the Secretary of State, that he would not use the power further than was absolutely necessary.

Amendment moved— In page 65, line 2, after the word 'Treasury,' to insert the following new subsection: "(6) Where it is proved to the satisfaction of the Secretary of State that arrangements cannot be made for the purpose of complying with this section in any place by the first day of April, nineteen hundred and nine, the Secretary of State may by order postpone the coming into operation of this section as respects that place until such date, not later than the first day of January, nineteen hundred and ten, as may be specified in the order.' "—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

Drafting Amendments to Clause 114 agreed to.

THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE

moved to strike out of subsection (2) of Clause 118— (2) Any constable who finds a person wandering from place to place and taking a child with him may, if he has reasonable ground for believing that the person is guilty of an offence under this section, apprehend him without a warrant, and may take the child to a place of safety in accordance with the provisions of Part II. of this Act— the power there given to a constable to apprehend an offender under the clause without a warrant. He urged that the clause proposed to establish a very far-reaching procedure. He could not see why it should be necessary to arrest the father, but the clause gave a policeman power, not only to take charge of the child with a view to its proper education, but also to arrest the father and lock him up. It Was not a criminal offence to fail to send a child to school, and in his opinion the power given to arrest the father went far beyond the necessities of the case.

Amendment moved— In page 66, line 33, to leave out the words 'apprehend him without a warrant, and may.'" (The Earl of Donoughmore.)

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

said that those who lived amid the arid heaths and waste lands of Surrey and Sussex knew how impossible it was to get hold of a gypsy. They were here to-day and gone tomorrow, and he felt sure he would be supported by the chief constables when he said that these people were the source of a great deal of the crime in those counties. If power to arrest without a warrant were not taken, the police would never be able to get hold of these men and their children. If the Amendment were agreed to the clause would be rendered nugatory so far as vagrants were concerned. He quite agreed that this was a new departure, but they had to deal with a very peculiar class in these nomads, who were commonly known as gypsies, but had not much of the old glamour that surrounded gypsy tribes. They were, for the most part, loafers and vagrants from the great towns, and more particularly from London. He hoped their Lordships would be content with the modification of the clause about to be proposed by the Lord Steward, which would relieve those who were engaged in a trade or business during certain parts of the year.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

also argued that the Amendment would make the clause of no effect. One of the objects in arresting the father was to make him pay. If he got away, there was no power to make him pay.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

moved the insertion of a new subsection, which he said was the outcome of the promise given to Earl Russell by the Lord Privy Seal at an earlier stage that the matter to which the noble Earl called attention should be considered.

Amendment moved— In page 66, line 36, after the word 'Part,' to insert the following new subsection: '(3) Without prejudice to the requirements of the Education Acts, 1870 to 1907, as to school attendance or to proceedings thereunder, this section shall not apply during the months of April to September, inclusive, to any child whose parent or guardian is engaged in a trade of such a nature as to require him to travel from place to place, and who has obtained a certificate of having made not less than two hundred attendances at a public elementary school during the months of October to March immediately preceding, and the power of the Board of Education to make regulations with respect to the issue of certificates of due attendance for the purposes of the Education Acts, 1870 to 1907, shall include a power to make regulations as to the issue of certificates of attendance for the purposes of this section.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

EARL RUSSELL

expressed the gratitude of those for whom he was acting to the Government for drafting the new subsection, which entirely met his particular opinion. He moved, however, to amend the Amendment by inserting the words, "or business" after the word, "trade." The expression "trade" might possibly be taken to mean some specified or particular trade recognised by a trade union.

Amendment moved to the Amendment— After the word 'trade' to insert the words 'or business.' "—(Earl Russell.)

EARL BEAUCHAMP

accepted the Amendment.

THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE

asked the noble Earl in charge of the Bill whether he was satisfied that the words as now drafted covered the case of a tinker who was travelling about the country looking for business. Such a man could not be said to be at the moment actually engaged in a trade or business.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

thought that such a case would be covered. The Home Office, however, would consider the point, and, if necessary, the wording could be amended in the other House.

LORD MONKSWELL

next moved a new clause, which, he said, was simply a transfer of Clause 21 of the defunct Licensing Bill to this Bill. He believed the principle had the assent of every Member of their Lordships' House, and, therefore, it was unnecessary to say anything on the merits.

Amendments moved— In page 66, after Clause 119, to insert the following new clause: '(1) The holder of the licence of any licensed premises shall not allow a child to be at any time in the bar of the licensed premises, except during the hours of closing. (2) If the holder of a licence acts in contravention of this section, or if any person causes or procures, or attempts to cause or procure, any child to go to or to be in the bar of any licensed premises except during the hours of closing, he shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding, in respect of the first offence, forty shillings, and in respect of any subsequent offence, five pounds. (3) If a child is found in the bar of any licensed premises, except during the hours of closing, the holder of the licence shall be deemed to have committed an offence under this section unless he shows that he has used due diligence to prevent the child being admitted to the bar. (4) Where any person is charged with an offence under this section in respect of a child who is alleged in the charge to be under the age of fourteen, and the child appears to the Court to be under that age, the child shall be deemed to be under that age unless the contrary is shown. (5) Nothing in this section shall apply in the case of a child who is resident but not employed in the licensed premises or in the case of premises constructed, fitted, and intended to be used in good faith for any purpose to which the holding of a licence is merely auxiliary. (6) In this section the bar of licensed premises means any open drinking bar or any part of the premises exclusively or mainly used for the sale and consumption of intoxicating liquor."—(Lord Monkswell).

EARL BEAUCHAMP

moved to amend the proposed new clause by omitting subsection (4), the point as to age being already provided for in the Bill, and inserting, as the final subsection, a provision that the expressions "licence" and "licensed premises" had the same meaning as in the Licensing Acts, 1828 to 1906.

Amendment moved to the Amendment— To leave out subsection (4), and to insert the following new subsection: '(7) The expressions "licence" and "licensed premises' have the same meaning as in the Licensing Acts, 1828 to 1906.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

moved to leave out the words "Before making any order under this Act with respect to," at the beginning of Clause 122, and to insert other words. He explained that the object of this and the three following Amendments was to make it quite clear that sentences under Clauses 103 and 104 were not to be invalidated by subsequent proof that the child on whom the sentence was passed was not really a child or young person—that was to say, if a mistake had been made in the age the sentence should still be held to be valid.

Amendment moved— In page 69, lines 14 and 15, to leave out the words 'Before making any order under this Act with respect to,' and to insert the words 'Where a person is brought before any Court, whether charged with an offence or not, and it appears to the Court that he is.' "—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Consequential Amendments agreed to.

Drafting Amendments to Clause 128 agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

explained that a gap had been left in Clause 130 in the definitions of "police authority" and "police fund," the Police Act of 1890 not applying to the City of London. The Amendment was drafted to supply that deficiency.

Amendment moved— In page 72, line 22, after the word 'fund,' to insert the words 'as respects the City of London, mean the Common Council and the fund out of which the expenses of the City police are defrayed, and elsewhere.' "—(Earl Beauchamp.)

EARL BEAUCHAMP

moved an Amendment in Clause 131 consequential upon the new clause which had been inserted on the Motion of Lord Monkswell, the object being to give the proper references to the Scottish Licensing Acts.

Amendment moved— In page 75, line 34, after the word '1864,' to insert the words 'and the reference to the Licensing Acts, 1828 to 1906, as a reference to the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, provided that the expression "holder of a licence" means holder of a certificate under the last-mentioned Act.' "—(Earl Beauchamp.)

THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE

moved to amend subsection (17) of Clause 132— (17) The provisions relating to exemptions from Part I. of this Act shall include any religious or charitable society which shall pay any person for keeping an infant, or any person so employed, provided that such society shall have obtained from the Local Government Board a certificate that it is a fit and proper institution to be exempted from the provisions of that part of this Act, by leaving out all the words after "The provisions relating to exemptions from Part 1 of this Act shall" and inserting the words in his Amendment which had been suggested to him by the Irish Office as better than those which their Lordships had been good enough to insert, on his Motion, at an earlier stage.

Amendment moved— In page 81, line 10, to leave out from the word 'shall' to the end of the subsection, and to insert the words 'extend to any person who undertakes for reward the nursing and maintenance of such infants only as are boarded-out with him by some religious or charitable society or institution approved by the Local Government Board for Ireland.'"—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

Privilege Amendments agreed to.

Moved "That the Bill do now pass." (Earl Beauchamp.)

On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons, and to be printed as amended. [No. 233.]

House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.