§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, on behalf of Lord Wemyss, who is unable to be present, I beg to put to the Undersecretary of State for War the Questions standing in the name of my noble friend on the Paper, viz.:—(1) What is the number of men fixed for the Territorial Force; (2) If, as is believed, the number of the said Force is not to exceed 300,000 men, why did the Secretary for War originally "pray" the Volunteers to give him "700,000 to 900,000 men" to form the base of his Army Cone; (3) When does he expect the new Territorial Force to be complete; and how many have already joined it; (4) Of the Force, when complete, what proportion of the men composing it may be reckoned upon as being twenty years of age and upwards; (5) What is the minimum age of the men serving in neighbouring Continental Armies; (6) What will be the normal annual period of training of the Territorial recruits and of the whole Territorial Force; (7) What number of men of the Territorial Force so trained shall we be able to put in the field for the defence of Great Britain after deducting men under twenty years of age, normal casualties, and the forces necessary for the defence of Ireland and the garrisoning of our fortified dockyards and forts in Great Britain, Ireland, and the Channel Islands; (8) When and within what period of time could the Territorial Force be mobilised fit in all respects to take the field after the order for mobilisation has been given; (9) Will 1045 this Territorial Force realise and give practical effect to the Resolution unanimously passed by the Lords—
That our land defences should at all times be such that no nation would ever attempt in any form a hostile landing on our shores.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord LUCAS)My Lords, in reply to the first Question, the numbers fixed for the Territorial Force are 11,895 officers and 302,199 non-commissioned officers and men. With regard to the second Question, it refers, no doubt, to a speech made by Mr. Haldane at Newcastle on 15th September, 1906, in which my right hon. friend said:—
If we had sufficient enthusiasm we might get into the field and manage to maintain an Army of 700,000, 800,000, or 900,000 men. The thing was within compass.Mr. Haldane subsequently explained this in the House of Commons, when he said he was speaking of an extremely exceptional and unlikely case. He never intended to maintain or attempt to maintain a force of anything approaching 900,000 men. But he claimed that in the organisation of the force we should have at hand the machinery of expansion whereby, should a great emergency arise and the national enthusiasm be thereby aroused, there would not be the slightest difficulty in raising 900,000 men.With regard to the third Question, the last figure I am able to give the noble Lord is the number of non-commissioned officers and men transferred up to 1st May, namely, 106,092. We have not got the figure as to officers yet. I hope to have the figures up to 1st June very shortly. I should not like to make any forecast as to when the Force will be complete, but if the present rate is continued it should be complete in about three months. The Question as to age I am unable to answer, as the ages of Volunteers joining has never been included in any return. But we have the ages of the Yeomanry. Out of 23,919 Yeomanry, there were 3,354 men under twenty. It is not expected that the new scheme will make much difference in the age of men who join.
As to the age in Continental armies, though the men generally join as conscripts, they are allowed to volunteer earlier so as to get their term of service over. In France, Germany, Spain and 1046 Turkey, the ages are: Conscripts twenty, Volunteers eighteen, though in France Volunteers may come in at seventeen in time of war; in Austria-Hungary, Conscripts twenty and three quarters and Volunteers seventeen; in Russia, twenty-one and nineteen; in Italy, twenty and seventeen; in Portugal, twenty and sixteen; and in Belgium, nineteen and sixteen. As to the normal annual period of training for the Territorial Force, the drills required for recruits are: Artillery and Engineers forty-five the first year, and in the Cavalry and Infantry forty; and for trained men, twenty in the Artillery, fifteen in the Engineers, and ten in the Cavalry and Infantry. The period of camp is from eight to fifteen days, except in the case of the Cavalry, for which force it is eight to eighteen days, the general officer commanding deciding as to how long, between the minimum and the maximum, the different units should go out. There are besides extra courses for officers and noncommissioned officers laid down in the leaflet issued on the training of the Force.
LORD LUCASThey are voluntary, but officers have to go through some of them before promotion. In addition to these courses, further facilities will be given for longer courses, which may be taken advantage of. In his next Question the noble Lord asks for what amounts to a disclosure of mobilisation plans, and that is information which has never been given. I might point out, however, that if you were mobilising the Territorial Force it would not be at all necessary to exclude men under twenty years of age, though they are excluded for foreign service in climates like India on the ground of health. There is nothing to prevent men under twenty years of age taking the field in this country if they are passed as fit.
With regard to the next Question, it is hoped that, when arrangements which are being pushed forward are complete, it will be possible to mobilise the Territorial Force instantly, the moment the whole of the Regular Reserves have been called out; but the Force will require a period of war training after mobilisation, as has always been said, before it can be 1047 considered fit to take the field against trained foreign troops. As to the last Question, the Territorial Force forms a most important part of the organisation of the military forces of the country, and will, undoubtedly, in the opinion of the Government, give effect to the Resolution quoted.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, the statement which the Under-Secretary of State for War has made is not a long one, but it is one of considerable importance, and I trust that its significance will not be missed by the House. In fact, I do not think I am exaggerating when I express the opinion that the points included in these Questions, and in the noble Lord's reply, are of considerably more importance than the question which was discussed with great force the other day, and which was, in effect, whether or not a reduction in the Regular Artillery was a desirable thing. That, no doubt, was an important matter, but it was not a vital matter. The question whether we have an adequate national force standing behind the Regular Army is, I maintain, a vital matter, and one upon which the future of this country may possibly depend.
We know, from statements that have been made from time to time, that the formation of this Territorial Force is regarded by the Government as an experiment of a somewhat hazardous nature. I would ask them, in view of the reply which has just been given, whether they are of opinion that the experiment appears likely to prove a success. To my mind it is a venture of a singularly unpromising character. The inducements to undertake a venture of this kind are the prospects of gain, but in this case there is no question of gain at all. It is a question of endeavouring to get back what you have already parted with. The Secretary of State for War has parted with the Volunteers, a force larger in numbers than the Territorial Force he is seeking to obtain, and he is now, with his colleagues, endeavouring by every possible means, and with the assistance of his political opponents, to induce these men to re-enlist, with what results we have just learned.
I do not wish to discuss this either in a party spirit or at length, but I should like to be permitted to put in a few sentences what I believe to be an impartial 1048 view of the military situation. After the South African War was concluded, a Royal Commission sat, under the Presidency of Lord Elgin, and came to the conclusion that the one thing which was of absolute necessity to this country was an expansion of our military system outside the Regular Forces of the Crown. Where, I ask, is this expansion? I may well ask. Instead of expansion we have contraction—contraction of the Regular Army and contraction of the Auxiliary Forces under their new designation of the Territorial Force. It was with this in his mind that the present Secretary of State for War, in spite of what the noble Lord opposite has said, went about the country telling everybody, wherever he got an opportunity, that unless we could produce a nation in arms we were practically doomed, and he asked them to give him anything from 700,000 to 900,000 men. He found, as was to be expected, first of all that he could not get the money from his own side; and, in the second place, that the country would not give him the men. The result is that his 900,000 men have been whittled down to 302,000 and this number has not been asked for on consideration of military strategy or any other necessity. The 302,000 represent the hypothetical maximum which you can possibly obtain under the obsolete voluntary system.
The noble Lord has told us that of the 302,000 only 106,000 have been obtained. I do not suppose that this meagre result has made much impression upon the Secretary of State for War, because he had already committed himself to the fact that he was, so to speak, prepared to go to allotment on a 30 per cent. subscription. The noble Lord expressed confidence of a rapid increase in these numbers. But what reason did he show for that confidence? The noble Lord abstained from answering some of the Questions on the Paper, and I notice, also, that his chief has carefully abstained from asking what would have been, no doubt, an extremely inconvenient question, with regard to the age and the quality of the men who are enlisting in the Territorial Force.
LORD LUCASThe ages of the men have to appear on the attestation forms, but as there are over 100,000 forms and they only came in quite recently, we have 1049 not yet got out the statement of their ages. But their ages are being taken.
§ LORD NEWTONI hope we shall have fuller information on that point later. But, upon the average, this Army is considerably younger than any Continental Army. There is another important question—namely, how many of these men have engaged for one year only? My information is that something like 90 per cent. of the total force have engaged for one year only. Whether, in view of the information that has been elicited from the Under-Secretary, this state of things gives practical effect to the Resolution which was passed by this House, I will leave your Lordships to decide. But, in addition to the facts which have been disclosed by the Answer, let me point out, what everybody knows, that the Regular Army has already been largely reduced. I do not wish to enlarge on this point, but I do desire, because I think it is most important, to draw attention to two expressions of opinion which have emanated from the Front Bench during the course of the last few days. One was the opinion of the Undersecretary himself that the preparation and effective training of the Territorial Force was not to be looked for in time of peace, but was to be provided for when, to use his own words, we were suffering from the war fever and were engaged in a race against time; and the second was the declaration to the effect that it was never contemplated that more than two-fifths of the Regular Army should leave these shores until the Territorial Force had been sufficiently trained. That being so, I should like to ask the Government what becomes of their expeditionary force?
To put it plainly, we are to be placed in this position, that the Fleet apparently is to be chained to our shores, and the greater proportion of the Regular Army is to be bottled up in this country until such time as the Territorial Army is trained sufficiently to' meet Continental troops in the field. I think these admissions and statements speak for themselves, and it is quite unnecessary for me to elaborate the case any further. But it does seem to me, in view of these facts and admissions, that it is really almost intolerable that the Secretary of State for War should go 1050 about at this moment boasting that his scheme of reform is one of the greatest successes of modern days. He has achieved success in a certain sense. His success lies in this, that he has done what few people have done—he has succeeded in getting the country to take words for facts and to substitute shams for realities. When the emergency arises, and when, under the delirium of war fever, we are engaged in a race against time, I shall be happy to think that I have had no part in responsibility for the military situation.
§ LORD HENEAGEMy Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord why he cannot give us the number of officers The chairmen of the County Associations were requested to send in their lists before 15th April, and I believe the majority did. They were told that the lists should be in by that date in order that the officers might be gazetted on 15th April, and appear in the Army List in May. I cannot see why the number of officers cannot be given. I should like to ask, further, whether great difficulty has not arisen on account of these officers not being legally entitled to attest recruits, owing to their not having been gazetted. I am afraid that in this way a good many recruits have been attested illegally.
§ THE EARL OF ERROLLMy Lords, in his reply to the eighth Question standing on the Paper, the noble Lord the Under-Secretary said the Territorial Force would be able to mobilise instantly. I should like to inquire whether arrangements have been made for the horses which would be necessary for mobilisation. Speaking from memory, I think the number of horses required on the mobilisation of the Regular Home Forces is 53,000, and I should like to know from the noble Lord whether, beyond this, any arrangement has been made for the horses necessary to enable the Territorial Force to mobilise instantly.
§ THE EARL OF DARTMOUTHMy Lords, I also have a small Question to put to the noble Lord. I understood him to say that there were certain extra courses laid down which officers would have to pass before promotion. As there seems to be some little doubt on this point, I 1051 should like to have it clearly stated whether, in the case of those officers who have undertaken to raise new units, and who naturally in the case of a battery of Field Artillery would take the rank of major, that rank will be allowed to stand, and how long those officers will be given before being compelled to pass the examination?
LORD RAGLANI should like to ask the noble Lord whether it is the fact that the Territorial Force will have less training than the old Volunteers. My recollection is that the Volunteers did sixty recruits drills, with twelve annual drills for trained men. In the case of the Territorial Force I gather that the drills will be: Recruits, 45; trained soldiers, 10.
LORD LUCASI think the numbers are forty and ten. At any rate, the periods have not been altered except in the case of the Artillery, and there they have been increased. Moreover, the whole of the Territorial Force can now have a fortnight's training, whereas in the case of the Volunteers only a certain number of selected Infantry battalions received more than eight days. In reply to Lord Dartmouth, I may say that it is not our intention to compel officers who are raising new units to qualify before they are gazetted. I am afraid I cannot state off-hand how long they will be given to pass the qualifying examination, but in this matter every consideration will be shown.
§ THE EARL OF DARTMOUTHI have already asked two Questions on this point. The Answer I received to one Question was that the period would be a year, and the Answer to the other was two years. We should like to have definitely stated the actual time which will be allowed to these officers to qualify, and I will put a Question on the Paper on that point.
LORD LUCASAs to the Question put to me by Lord Erroll, I may say that the whole question of horses is under consideration at the present moment. It is impossible for me to tell the House what exactly is being done, but I can assure the noble Earl that the Army Council fully realise how important it is that it should be possible for the provision of horses for the Regular Army on 1052 mobilisation and also for the Territorial Army to proceed simultaneously. We know that there are sufficient horses in the country to mobilise both the Regular Army and the Territorial Force, and we hope to be able to work out some scheme whereby the process of satisfying the requirements of the Regular Army in the matter of horses will not interfere with the horsing of the Territorial Force on mobilisation. With regard to Lord Heneage's Question, the returns were not all in by the date at which they were originally asked for, and there has in consequence been a certain amount of delay in gazetting officers. They have, however, transferred in large numbers, and we are very satisfied with the way in which they have come in. The names of many thousands are being prepared for the Gazette, and the mere clerical work is occupying a great deal of time. We hope, however, to have them all gazetted very shortly. As to officers not gazetted being unable to attest recruits, I speak with some uncertainty, but I think the officers retain their old commissions in the meanwhile, and therefore would be, I think, legally entitled to attest.
§ LORD HENEAGEI can assure the noble Lord that the point was thoroughly discussed at a meeting of the Lincolnshire Territorial Association, and two of the commanding officers, who are very able lawyers, were quite certain that the officers could not attest.
§ THE MARQUESS OF HERTFORDI should like to ask when the question of uniform, and especially the walking-out dress, will be settled. There are something like 2,000 men already enrolled in the Birmingham battalions, and it will be quite impossible to get them clothed in time for camp unless the question is speedily determined.