HL Deb 02 March 1908 vol 185 cc293-305
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH

rose to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War a series of Questions in connection with the Territorial Force. The noble Earl said: My Lords, perhaps I ought in the first place to offer some explanation as to the somewhat unusual form my Question takes. The fact is, that, wide as is the latitude given in your Lordships' House in the asking of Questions, I have had the misfortune on more than one occasion to exceed that limit, and I have laid myself open to the charge of putting the Minister who had to reply in some difficulty in consequence. I have endeavoured, therefore, by framing these Questions in this particular way, to avoid that danger on this occasion.

My first Question is, as to the position of a commanding officer of a disbanded unit. The other day, in replying to Lord Ampthill, the noble Earl told us what would be the position of other officers of these units. If not provided for in other arms they were to be placed on a supernumerary list, and no recruiting is to take place until the officers and men so placed are absorbed. I wish to ask—Will the name of the commanding officer of a disbanded unit be placed on a supernumerary list, and, if so, will he have first claim on the command of any battalion in the county that becomes vacant?

My second interrogation deals with the question of co-optation. In the county which I represent we are in rather a difficult position. There is great difficulty in finding room for members on the civilian side. We have very full representation of the present military units, but there will be considerable difficulty when the new units are formed in making way for the representatives of those units. I should like to have it made perfectly clear whether the County Associations will be entitled, under certain circumstances, to co-opt members as military representatives. For instance, we have at the present time one military representative member whose term of command has expired. Under the rules he will retire. We have also the colonel of the disbanded unit. He will also retire. They are both qualified, and there would be no difficulty in reappointing them, if necessary, as military representative members. The scheme itself talks of military members, not military representative members, to be appointed by the Army Council. As the point is a very important one, I would ask whether there would be any objection to giving the County Associations power where the circumstances demanded it, to co-opt members as military representatives.

I have received a letter from Lord Heneage, who is suffering from bronchitis and unable to be in his place, asking me to put several Questions on his behalf. I quite understand that, having had no notice of some of these Questions, the noble Earl will not be ready with an immediate reply. Lord Heneage first raises the point as to the financial memorandum recently issued. I would impress on the noble Earl the importance of having these matters, which are essential to our success, fully considered before the scheme is made final. Personally, though I am not a financial expert, I have a vague idea that the amount proposed will not be half enough, and I trust that pressure will be put on the Chancellor of the Exchequer in order to induce him to extend the financial limit. The other night the Secretary of State for War stated that it is the first step that costs. That is absolutely true. Here are we, the County Associations, doing what is usually known as the goose step; but if you are going to tie our feet, we shall never be able to step out at the necessary regulation pace. What I would especially emphasise is that our difficulty will be in the start. By and bye, when the Territorial Force is a going concern, we may be able to effect savings which are impossible in the first instance.

Then Lord Heneage refers to the attestation form, against which his Association requested him to send a strong protest. The Association expressed the opinion that it should be immediately withdrawn, and that a revised form should be issued without delay for recruiting purposes. Personally I have not seen the attestation form, and therefore cannot express an opinion; but there is, I think, one point which we would all be ready to admit—namely, that men should not be induced to serve without knowing fully what the conditions of service are. Next Lord Heneage protests against the calling in of the clothing for valuation purposes. He says— The officers were unanimous that if the clothing were called in it would not be taken out again, and there would be more resignations. Business men all agree that it is unnecessary, as the valuation could be done quite as easily from the books. The next point Lord Heneage urges is the desirability, when present companies are linked to a reduced number of units, that the sergeant-instructors should remain with half companies. That raises the whole question of recruiting, and it would help us very much if we knew exactly our position in that matter. While we admit that the Regular Army must come first, the question of recruiting these units will be a matter of serious difficulty, as the sergeant-instructors will be serving two masters who will be pulling in opposite directions. I should like the noble Earl to take into consideration the question of recruiting for the Territorial Army and what assistance will be given. The next point is as to guns, and Lord Heneage urges the importance of supplying the new guns for field artillery without further delay. I have already written to the War Office to ascertain the position in which we stand at this moment. The other day, in the House of Commons, Mr. Haldane intimated that there would be required to arm the Territorial Force 536 converted 15-pounder guns, and that about 150—roughly, a third—would be ready by the end of last month. We in Staffordshire, have to raise six batteries of twenty-four guns, and we made application for eight to be issued at once. I wish to impress on the noble Earl opposite how important it is, both as regards training and recruiting, that these guns should be sent round as quickly as possible.

To return to my own Questions, I wish to ask—(3) What is the exact meaning of the intimation given that should the quota of units allotted to a county not be raised, the salary of the secretary is liable to be reconsidered? (4) In view of the desire expressed by the Minister for War that a free hand should be given to County Associations, what are to be the relations between County Associations and the War Office? The noble Earl the Under-Secretary stated on a former occasion that the Army Council desired to give the Association as free a hand as possible. These were his words— The Army Council, in their desire to give the Territorial Force as free a hand as possible, have decentralised its administration as far as is compatible with military efficiency. That is the desire of the noble Earl, and, as we know, of the Secretary of State for War; but that is not the spirit in which our representations have been met by the War Office. My County Association received an instruction that at our first meeting we should appoint a secretary. The appointment was to be subject to one condition only—the approval of the Army Council. On 16th January I notified the War Office that a certain gentleman had been appointed, and stated the salary we proposed to give him. I may say that I had been informed by the War Office beforehand that the salary I then offered—£230—would be approved by them, or was considered an appropriate salary to offer. It took the War Office more than a fortnight to acknowledge receipt of that letter, and more than a month to complete the appointment. I was told that the reason was that it went through so many hands. Why should it go through all these hands? These are only two parties concerned—the County Association on the one hand, and the Army Council on the other.

Mr. Haldane informed us the other day that he was surprised that there should be any interference on the question of the salary to the secretary, and added that all the War Office wished to do was to advise County Associations not to give too big a salary for fear they might be hampered in the many expenses they would have to meet. But what happened? I received an answer stating that it was considered, having regard to the number of troops to be maintained by the county, that not more than £200 should be given, and that the secretary, moreover, should be informed that in the event of the number of the territorial units raised by the county falling lower than in the draft scheme, the amendment of the salary might be subject to reconsideration. I have since received a telegram, however, stating that the War Office approve of the salary of £230 for Captain Wheeler. I would point out that the secretary in my county has to help to raise 7,300 men, and a salary of £200, considered sufficient by the War Office represents a payment of about 6½d. a man, or less than the amount given to a recruiting officer.

It is also to be remembered that, in addition to the heavy duties of raising and equipping these men, there is the enormous difficulty of locating the new units. This cannot be done without very careful consideration and organisation, and I think it is obvious that the secretary's work is sufficiently difficult to carry a higher salary than £200. I was present at the conference at which the Secretary of State reeled out the qualifications of the suggested secretary, and as we listened to the right hon. Gentleman we could almost imagine the wings of the angel sprouting under the well-worn tunic of the secretary, and we felt that at any rate the services of such a man would require to be well-paid. But we now find that the War Office have dozens of these heaven-born geniuses, who, I suppose, fulfil the necessary qualifications, ready to undertake the duties at £150 a year or less. At another conference we were told that the County Associations were liable to take too parochial a view of the secretaries; that we were not to look upon them as glorified quartermaster-sergeants but to take a wider view. I think the only thing parochial about the position of the Secretary is the salary we give and if we are to take a wider view of the secretary we ought to take a wider view of the salary we offer. The difficulty in locating the units is great. In my own county—Staffordshire—we have to place the various units, many of them consisting of arms hitherto unknown to us, in forty-four or forty-five different localities. The Army Council can tell us we have to raise so many troops, but we cannot go down to the districts and say to one: "You must raise the transport"; and to another: "You must raise a half company of engineers." We have to endeavour to induce them to do what we ask.

Lord Lucas the other night, in an excellent paper—and here I should like to say how thoroughly we appreciate the way in which Lord Lucas has endeavoured to help us in the difficulties that have arisen—said there were three ways in which we might induce men to come forward. One was to cajole, another to persuade, and a third to approach. I did not myself like the word "cajole," and, on looking it up in Webster's dictionary, I find that to cajole is to "chatter like a bird in a cage," and to "deceive with flattery of fair words." I venture to think that if we are to cajole by deceiving with flattery of fair words we shall not get a very reliable body of men. I have pointed out the difficulty there is in obtaining answers to letters sent to the War Office. On the other side it is very different, for we are asked to say, by telegram, what is to be the location of these units. This must be a matter of time. We cannot do it without very careful consideration and a good deal of organisation and reorganisation. I would urge upon those who are responsible not to make the scheme absolutely fixed and final. We are doing the best we can, but do not let the i's be dotted and the t's crossed so that we shall be fixed down to a particular scheme. What we require in all these matters is elasticity. We cannot put the new Territorial Force on to a bed of Procrustes for its limbs to be lopped or stretched in a moment. It must be a matter of time, and considerable time.

These are all the Questions I propose to ask to-day. I have a great many more, but will postpone them. I wish it to be understood that I do not raise the question in any carping spirit. We have taken it up heart and soul, and are doing our best to carry it through. I am in entire agreement with making the county the proper unit. I am also pleased with the position which is given to the Lord-Lieutenant. There is a smack of feudalism about it which to the old Tory is not without attraction. The spirit in which the scheme has been taken up by the County Associations is remarkable, and its success or failure will depend very much on what they are able to do. The success or failure of the scheme is now in the balance, and the War Office would be well advised to give us a free hand, and let us take the public into our confidence. What everyone is clamouring to know are the details of the scheme and the duties the Territorial Force will be called upon to undertake. We have an Advisory Council at the head, which we are glad to see so long as it is not merely to be one more port of call for the communications we send to the War Office. We have as our representative at the War Office Lieutenant-General Mackinnon, who will keep us straight in regard to military discipline; and behind there are the County Associations. What I say is, trust the Associations and they will do their best to pull you through. I beg to ask the Questions of which I have given the noble Earl private notice.

THE MARQUESS OF WINCHESTER

As the First Lord of the Admiralty is sitting next to him, I would ask the noble Earl the Under-Secretary if he would confer with the First Lord and give an Answer to the Question which I addressed to the War Office at the end of January—namely, whether the employees in His Majesty's dockyards will be permitted to join the Territorial Force. This Question has been put to me by one of the commanding officers in my county, and as I addressed it to the War Office and received a reply that the Admiralty and the War Office would confer on the subject, I trust the noble Lord will excuse me for intervening now and asking whether a decision has been come to on the point.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Lord TWEEDMOUTH)

A certain number of dockyard men—the exact proportion has not yet been settled—will be allowed to join the Territorial Force, and we are in consultation with the War Office on the subject. The noble Marquess will quite realise that it is necessary to have the dockyard men in the dockyards in times of emergency, and, therefore, a great number of them cannot be allowed to join.

THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of PORTSMOUTH)

My Lords, I am indebted to the noble Earl for his courtesy in giving me private notice of four specific Questions, and I propose to answer them in their order. It was, however, difficult for me to follow, from the noble Earl's, speech, what the precise Questions were which Lord Heneage wished to have addressed to the War Office; and as I am anxious to give your Lordships and the public full and accurate information on the points raised, perhaps the noble Earl will enable me to do so by communicating the Questions to me privately or putting them down on the Notice Paper.

THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH

I intended to make it clear that Lord Heneage's letter had only just reached me, and that I had had no time to give notice to the noble Earl. I will furnish him with the Questions, so that he may have an opportunity of fully answering them.

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

The first Question put to me by the noble Earl was—What is the position of a commanding officer of a disbanded unit? Will his name be placed on a supernumerary list, and, if so, will he have first claim on the command of any battalion in the county that becomes vacant? My answer to that Question is that all officers, including commanding officers of disbanded units, can, if they so wish, be placed on a supernumerary list for other units in the county. Should a commanding officer decide to have his name placed on the supernumerary list his name will be kept on it until the end of his appointment unless he wishes to withdraw earlier. Should a vacancy occur in the command of a unit whilst he is on its supernumerary list the appointment of a commanding officer would depend on the recommendation of the military authorities, and he may be appointed to the command should they consider him the most fitting officer for the post. The appointment will be made not necessarily according to seniority, but the respective merits of officers who are eligible for the command of the unit will be given careful consideration before any appointment is made.

THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH

Do I understand from that that no special favour will be shown to a commanding officer of a disbanded unit, but that he will have to take his chance with the rest?

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

That is so. The second Question put to me by the noble Earl was—Will power be given to County Associations, under certain conditions, to co-opt members as military representatives? I should like to remind my noble friend that military members cannot be appointed by co-option of the Association. The Act lays down that they shall be appointed by the Army Council, and the policy of the Army Council in this respect has been to ask general officers commanding-in-chief to supply the names of those officers who should be appointed as military members of their County Associations, and then to obtain the concurrence of the Association. When vacancies occur among military members the same method is adopted for filling them up, though I may again add that the wishes of County Associations will, wherever possible, be consulted before the appointment is made. When the officer commanding a unit retires on the completion of his term of command, he need not necessarily cease to be a military member of the Association, so long as he is considered to be still representative of the Territorial Forces within the county area. In a great many cases it will probably be found that the officer who succeeds him in command of the unit is already a member of the Association; should this not be the case it will be a matter for arrangement between the Association and the general officer commanding-in-chief as to whether or not the retiring commanding officer should give up his place on the Association to the new commanding officer. The retiring commanding officer, if there is a vacancy, can, of course, be co-opted as an ordinary member.

THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH

There is no room for him.

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

The noble Earl's next Question was—What is the exact meaning of the intimation given that should the quota of units allotted to a county not be raised, the salary of the secretary is liable to be reconsidered? The total amount of the administrative grant, out of which provision for the secretary's salary is to be made, depends upon the number of efficient units raised by the county. If, therefore, the required number of units are from any cause not raised, the total administrative grant is correspondingly less. The secretary's salary coming, as it does, out of the administrative grant, may be similarly affected. I should like to add that if the Associations have money to spare from other sources, it would be open to them to increase the emoluments of their secretary.

THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl again, but this is a very important point. When I received the letter from the War Office, I replied stating that Captain Wheeler had been offered, and had accepted, a fixed salary of £230 a year. He is compelled to retire from the Army and we offered him this fixed salary. My Association could not agree to any proposal to reduce that amount in the event of the number of efficient units raised not coming up to the quota.

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

The noble Earl has instanced the particular case of Captain Wheeler, but I was dealing with the general question. In the case to which the noble Earl referred, the salary has, I understand, been fixed and agreed to. Next the noble Earl asked: In view of the desire expressed by the Minister for War, that a free hand should be given to County Associations, what are to be the relations between County Associations and the War Office? As I have said before, the Army Council is strongly of opinion that the Associations should be given as free a hand as possible in the management of their own affairs. We feel that the Associations are thoroughly competent to manage them, and are convinced that they will do so to the best of their abilities. Subject only to the general supervision which the War Office is bound to exercise over the manner in which grants are expended by the Association, the War Office wish to interfere as little as possible, and even the method of financial control which has been outlined in the financial Memorandum in the hands of the Associations has been framed so as to suit the convenience of Associations as much as possible.

Then, in a subsequent letter to me, the noble Earl says that the Secretary of State for War had stated that of the 536 converted 15-pounders required to arm the Field Artillery of the Territorial Force, 150 would be ready at the end of February. My noble friend asks whether I can now indicate when these guns will be distributed and where they will be placed. My noble friend seems to be under some misapprehension on this point. If he is referring to an Answer given in another place by my right hon. friend on 3rd February, no definite date was given by him on that occasion. My right hon. friend then stated that of the 536 guns required the first batch of 150 was undergoing conversion, and that some of these would be ready for issue immediately. I may add that we expect to have fifty completed by the end of this month; six are now ready for issue, and distribution will be begun immediately, one being issued to each brigade for instructional purposes in the first place. It is, of course, difficult for me to say anything as regards the method of distribution, but I presume that will largely depend upon the rapidity with which Garrison Artillery are converted into Field Artillery in certain counties, and that those counties which are able to do this quickest will receive the most attention in this matter.

EARL FORTESCUE

Can the noble Earl tell the House how much longer it is likely to be before more than fifty guns will be issued?

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

It is difficult to give the exact date, but I think before the end of the year.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON

If these guns are not all to be available for use before the end of the year, I should like to ask the noble Earl how the new Field Artillery are to be instructed in the use of guns they will not have?

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

A certain number of guns, though, perhaps, not the whole, will be completed before then. We shall certainly have a sufficient number to carry on instruction.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON

I am sorry to press my noble friend, but cannot he be more definite? All that he has said is that some guns will be available for use for instruction. This new force comes into existence on the last day of this month, and I would like to ask what steps the County Associations can be expected to take to bring their Field Artillery units into any sort of condition of efficiency if they have no guns with which to instruct them?

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

In reply to that further appeal, I can only say that if the noble Duke will put a Question down, I will, in the meantime, look into the matter with the authorities specially concerned with this particular department, and see whether anything can be done to expedite the delivery of guns. I do not like giving any pledges, which may not be fulfilled, as to time.

VISCOUNT MIDLETON

Will the noble Earl undertake that until the guns are issued and the new Territorial Artillery pronounced efficient, recruiting of the Regular Artillery will go on as last year?

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

I am afraid I cannot answer that Question.