HL Deb 31 July 1908 vol 193 cc1939-42

Returned from the Commons with several of the Amendments agreed to, and one of the Amendments disagreed to, and an Amendment made in lieu thereof.


The Commons' reason for disagreeing

stages of this discussion the Leader of the House said that, whatever else we might not do, we had, at any rate, the right to amend the machinery of the Bill. Now the clause to which Lord Midleton moved an Amendment is a pure machinery clause. I cannot see that it would cost a single half-crown in point of money. And yet that Amendment has been rejected on the ground that it is an interference with the privileges of the House of Commons. That is what I call an encroachment upon our privileges, and it is against appearing to acquiesce in that encroachment that I desire to guard myself. It is for that reason and for that reason alone, and not with any idea of putting the clock back, that I have placed this Resolution before the House.

On Question—

Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 37; Not-Contents, 23.

Devonshire, D. Haddington, E. Clinton, L.
Wellington, D. Halsbury, E. Curzon of Kedleston, L.
Mar, E. De Mauley, L.
Bath, M. Morton, E. Ebury, L.
Lansdowne, M. Mount Edgeumbe, E. Killanin, L.
Salisbury, M. Plymouth, E. Lawrence, L.
Waldegrave, E.[Teller.] Macnaghten, L.
Camperdown, E. Churchill, V. [Teller.] Newlands, L.
Cawdor, E. St. Aldwyn, V. Ponsonby, L. (E. Bessborough.)
Clarendon, E.
Cromer, E. Bangor, L. Bp. St. Oswald, L.
Dartmouth, E. Sanderson, L.
Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.) Ashbourne, L. Sudley, L. (E. Arran.)
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Eldon, E. Brodrick, (V. Midleton.)
Loreburn, L. (L. Chancellor.) Wolverhampton, V. Granard, L. (E. Granard.) [Teller]
Ripon, M. (L. Privy Seal.) Allendale, L. Hamilton of Dalzell, L.
Armitstead, L. Hemphill, L.
Beauchamp, E. (L. Steward) Castletown, L. Herschell, L.
Carrington, E. Colebrooke, L. Pirrie, L.
Crewe, E. Denman, L. [Teller.] Reay L.
Eversley, L. St. Davids, L.
Althorpe, V. (L. Chamberlain) Farrer, L. Stanley of Alderley, L.
Fitzmaurice, L.

to one of the Lords' Amendments is as follows. They disagree to the Amendment made by the Lords in page 5, line 39, viz.— After the word, 'funds,' to insert the words 'and the professor or lecturer is not eligible for membership of the General Board of Studies, or of any faculty other than the faculty of theology; or (b) the erection of any church, chapel, or place of religious worship or observance by means of private benefaction within or without the precincts of the University or college'"— for the following reason: Because the first part of the Amendment is not in the proper place in the clause, and they propose to insert a corresponding provision elsewhere; and because the second part of the Amendment is contrary to the principle on which public money was given to the University.


The alteration made by the other House transfers to another place in the section the words providing that the professor or lecturer is not eligible for membership of the General Board of Studies or of any faculty other than the faculty of theology. That is a purely grammatical point, and I move that the House agree with the Commons in that alteration. The other Amendment, on which I shall move that your Lordships do not insist, is the one upon which considerable discussion took place relating to the building of a chapel. I do not want to repeat the arguments I used on that occasion, further than to say that this particular point represents a compromise which was arrived at on the subject in another place; and as the division last night showed how very nearly your Lordships were divided on the subject, I hope you may be disposed not to insist on the Amendment to-day.

Moved "That the Commons' Amendment to the Lords' Amendments be agreed to."—(The Earl of Crewe).


Might I ask whom this compromise was between?


It would take a pretty long time to explain that, and would involve the discussion of the entire history of the question over some years.


Well, to put it short, was it between the Nationalists and the Nonconformists?

[No Answer was returned.]

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Moved, "That this House do not insist on that part of the said Amendment to which the Commons have disagreed."—(The Earl of Crewe.)


I certainly do not desire to suggest that we should insist upon our Amendment, particularly in view of the narrowness of the division last night. The point was one about which we had ourselves no doubt, but we desired to give the House of Commons, which had already changed its mind more than once upon the subject, another opportunity of discussing the question.

On Question, Motion agreed to.