§ Amendments reported (according to order).
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTONsaid he had to move several Amendments which the Government had promised to bring up on the Report stage. The first Amendment he had to submit to their Lordships was one which added to the definition of evidence which must be given in reference to the age of the applicant for a pension. The Amendment did not alter the clause, but 1439 added the words "by census returns or other documents or in such other manner as may seem well to the pension authorities." The whole clause would then read: "The statutory conditions for the receipt of an old-age pension by any person are: (1) The person must have attained the age of seventy as verified when practicable by a certificate of birth or baptism or in the absence of such documents by census returns or other documents or in such other manner as may seem sufficient to the pension authorities."
§ *VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYNsaid he did not think it was quite clear as the words stood as amended by the noble Lord that such evidence would have, if possible, to be obtained. They ought to have more binding words in the clause, and he would move that the words should be inserted "where no such certificates or documents are obtainable."
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTONsaid he thought the words were unnecessary. They had already the words "where no such documents or certificates are obtainable."
§ *VTSCOUNT ST. ALDWYNsaid the whole thing would be made clear by such words as he had suggested.
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTONsaid if the noble Lord wished to have the words in he would accept them.
§
Amendment moved to the proposed Amendment—
To add the words 'where no such certificates or documents are obtainable.'"— (Viscount St. Aldwyn.)
§ On Question, agreed to.
§ Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 3, line 21, after the word 'and' to insert the words 'if the term of imprisonment to which he is sentenced exceeds one month he shall be disqualified.'"—(Viscount Wolverhampton.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid he believed the noble Viscount had put 1440 down certain words, but he understood from Lord Saltoun that he had agreed with the Government in an Amendment which was different in words but really the same in substance. It would run as follows: "In page 3, line 21, after the word 'and' to insert the words 'If his term of imprisonment is not less than one month he shall be disqualified.' The result of that was that he could not receive a pension while he was imprisoned. When he left prison he would be disqualified for a further period of ten years if his term of imprisonment had been for one month.
THE LORD CHANCELLORThe Paper handed in to me runs as follows: "In Clause 3, page 3, line 21, after the word 'and' to insert the words 'if the term of imprisonment to which he is sentenced exceeds one month he shall be disqualified.'"
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTONsaid that was the agreement come to.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ *VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYNsaid that he had raised the point to which the next Amendment referred in Committee on the Bill, and he understood that Lord Wolverhampton would propose some Amendment to meet, in some measure, the point he placed before him. He now begged to move the Amendment he had placed on the Paper, because he imagined from what fell from the noble Viscount in Committee, it would commend itself to the Government. It was to insert after the word "him" in Clause 4, the words "as to produce the largest income that can be reasonably obtained from it."
§
Amendment moved—
In page 4, line 4, after the word him, to insert the words 'as to produce the largest income that can be reasonably obtained from it."'—(Viscount St. Aldwyn.)
LORD FITZMAURICEsaid that this question was discussed at some length on the previous day, but the Amendment of the noble Viscount was, he thought, very much reduced in importance, if he might say so, by the 1441 suggestion he had now made. They had to point out that any modification of this clause presumably would come within the scope of the rule as to the privileges of the House of Commons, and that even if they agreed to accept it in any way they could only accept it subject to a warning on that subject; but having repeated that, he saw no objection to the words which the noble Viscount had proposed.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTON moved an Amendment, which he thought would meet the approval of the noble Lord opposite.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 5, line 20, to leave out from the word 'them' to the end of line 26, and to insert the words 'if any person is aggrieved by the refusal or neglect of the local pension committee to consider a claim for a pension or to determine on any question referred to them, that person may apply in the prescribed manner to the central pension authority, and that authority may, if they consider that the local pension committee have refused or neglected to consider and determine the claim or question within a reasonable time, themselves consider and determine the claim or question in the same manner as on an appeal from the decision of the local pension committee.'"—(Viscount Wolverhampton.)
§ LORD ATKINSON indicated that he was satisfied with the Amendment of the noble Viscount.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD ATKINSONsaid he wished to move a clause in connection with what occurred on the previous night. He moved then that any member of the committee should have the power of appeal, and he did not withdraw the Amendment, but, on the contrary, he pressed it, and he understood it was agreed to. He now understood, however, that there was some mistake, and the easiest way of correcting that mistake was to move a new clause substantially the same as the Amendment he moved on the previous day. He dared say the fault was his. It enabled 1442 any member of the committee to appeal from the decision of the committee to the central authority. He thought that perhaps an objection might be made to that, that if a member did not choose to attend the committee he should not be allowed to appeal after the committee had arrived at a certain decision of which he might disapprove, and therefore he proposed to move a new clause in a more restricted form, as follows: "Section 7, Clause (d), the expression 'party aggrieved' shall include a member of the said committee who has taken part in the consideration of the report, and has dissented from the decision." The noble Viscount would see that that limited it very much and only conferred the privilege of appeal on a person who had come to the committee and endeavoured to do his duty in that respect.
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTONsaid he understood from his advisers that there was a mistake on the previous night in the Amendment and that the Amendment now moved was substantially agreed to. Therefore, the Government would now assent to the Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
In Clause 7, to add a further sub-clause (d) The expression "party aggrieved" shall include a member of the said committee who has taken part in the consideration of the report and has dissented from the decision.'"—(Lord Atkinson.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD FITZMAURICE moved, in Clause 8, to leave out the words "means and." It was merely a drafting Amendment in consequence of the Amendment carried on the previous day with reference to the Metropolitan boroughs.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 8, line 37, to omit the words 'means and.'"— (Lord Fitzmaurice.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 5, line 38, after the word 'London,' to insert the words 'and the expression "council
1443
of a borough" includes the council of a metropolitan borough, and in respect to the City of London the mayor, aldermen, and commoners of the City of London in common council assembled.'"—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTON moved to insert a new subsection in Clause 8, which he said, was considered to be a desirable addition.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 6, line 18, to insert the words, 'Any reference in this Act to the pension authority shall be construed as a, reference to the pension officer, the local pension committee and the central pension authority, or to any one of them, as the case requires."—(Viscount Wolverhampton.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTONsaid that Clause 9 as it originally passed the House contained these words: "If for the purpose of obtaining or continuing an old-age pension under this Act. either for himself or for any other person, or for the purpose of obtaining or continuing an old-age pension under this Act for himself or for any other person at a higher rate than that appropriated to the case, any person knowingly makes any false statement or false representation, or if it appears." Whom it was to appear to was not stated, and it evidently would create a great deal of doubt, and what he proposed was to strike out the words "it appears that," so that it would read: "Any person knowingly makes any false statement or false representation, or if any person has directly or indirectly deprived himself of any income or property in order to qualify himself for the receipt of an old-age pension, or for the receipt of an old-age pension at a higher rate than that to which he would otherwise be entitled under this Act, he shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, with hard labour." It was only a drafting Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
In page 6, lines 24 and 25, to leave out the words 'it appears that.'"—(Viscount Wolverhampton.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
1444§ Drafting Amendments agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTONsaid they proposed to make the Third Reading of the Old-Age Pensions Bill on the next day.
§ THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN asked if they could not take it now.
§ VISCOUNT WOLVERHAMPTONsaid he would be very glad to do so, but he was given to understand that it would be against the rules of the House. He would like, if their Lordships would allow him, to explain that this had been a very rapid progress, but the reason, he was sure their Lordships would appreciate, was the time of the session, and the absolute necessity if possible in order that Parliament might be adjourned on Saturday, that these Amendments, after the Bill had been read a third time tomorrow morning, which he hoped could be done, should go to the House of Commons at once. Otherwise they would run the risk of being kept there over Sunday. Would he be in order if he moved that the Bill should have precedence to-morrow over other business?
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHsaid they must give notice to suspend the Standing Orders, and it could then have precedence to-morrow, but he did not think they could move now that the Bill should have precedence without giving notice, as it was a matter which involved the suspension of the Standing Orders.
§ Bill to be read 3a To-morrow, and to be printed as amended. (No. 197.)