HL Deb 21 July 1908 vol 192 cc1659-68

House in Committee (according to Order).

[THE EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

*VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN moved to omit from this clause, which gave power of making regulations as to the turning out of entire animals on commons, the words "for the purpose of maintaining or improving the breed of animals on a common." He said that as the clause at present stood it was perfectly clear that the commoners would not have the power of altogether forbidding the turning out of entire animals on a common. He was himself acquainted with small commons where the turning out of entire animals would be a public nuisance. Lord Carrington had placed an Amendment on the Paper to insert the words "if any"; but the whole thing would still be governed by the words "for the purpose of maintaining or improving the breed of animals on a common," He therefore hoped their Lordships would agree to omission of those words.

Amendment moved— In page 1, lines 5 and 6, to leave out the words 'for the purpose of maintaining or improving the breed or animals on the common.'"—Viscount St. Aldwyn.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON)

said that, in the opinion of the Board of Agriculture, there was no doubt as to the power of altogether prohibiting entire animals from being turned out; but, if the noble Viscount thought there was, he was prepared to accept the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CLINTON moved to leave out the words "and when made" from the provision that the commoners might "make and when made alter or revoke" the regulations. Obviously the regulations could not be altered or revoked until they were made, and therefore the words were unnecessary.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 11, to leave out the words 'and when made.'"—Lord Clinton.

EARL CARRINGTON

said the noble Lord's Amendment was an improvement, and he was quite ready to accept it.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CLINTON moved to leave out the words "the times at which and." It was obvious that the conditions must cover the times at which the animals were to be allowed to be turned out. That would be one of the most important conditions, but there would be many other matters to be covered, such as the type, breed, quality, and perhaps size of the animals; and if one particular condition was specifically mentioned it might be argued that other important conditions were excluded. He wished the noble Earl to understand that he had no desire to do anything to weaken the conditions, but rather to strengthen them, so that the commoners might be able to pass all the regulations really necessary for the welfare and safety of the stock on the common.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 12, to leave out the words the times at which and.'"—(Lord Clinton.)

EARL CARRINGTON

thought the object of the noble Lord would be met by the next Amendment, which stood in his (Earl Carrington's) name. Perhaps, therefore, the noble Lord would withdraw the Amendment.

LORD CLINTON

did not think the noble Earl's words would be any improvement on the Bill as it stood. They wished to do away altogether with the mentioning of any particular condition. The condition in question was necessarily included, and they were afraid that to mention it specifically might lead to the supposition that others were excluded.

EARL CARRINGTON

asked whether the noble Lord was perfectly certain that his point was not met by the next Amendment.

LORD CLINTON

said he was advised that it was not.

EARL CARRINGTON

said that, in the opinion of the Board of Agriculture, there was no doubt on the point.

LORD CLINTON

accepted this assurance, and withdrew the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

EARL CARRINGTON moved to insert, after the words "make and when made alter or revoke regulations for determining the times," the words "if any." This, he believed, met the objections of the noble Lord opposite.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 12, after the word 'times' to insert the words 'if any.'"—(Earl Carrington.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN,

who had given notice of an Amendment expressly giving power of "forbidding any such animals to be upon the common," said he would not move this Amendment if the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture was quite satisfied that there was ample power in the clause as amended to forbid altogether entire animals being placed upon the common.

EARL CARRINGTON

said he believed the noble Viscount's point was absolutely met.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

said that, in those circumstances, he would not move the Amendment.

LORD CLINTON

said that as the clause stood power was given for raising only such sums as might be necessary for enforcing the regulations. He moved to insert words to enable the expenses incurred in making and publishing the regulations to be defrayed. He thought this cost should be provided for.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 20, after the word 'for' to insert the words 'defraying expenses incurred in making, publishing, or.'"—(Lord Clinton.)

EARL CARRINGTON

accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CLINTON moved to insert the words "and for prescribing the person to receive or sue for such payments." The clause provided that commoners might, among other things, raise the sums required for the purpose of making the regulations; but the Bill gave no indication as to who was to receive those sums, or, in cases of non-payment, who was to sue for the recovery of such payments. Hence his Amendment.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 24, after the word 'common' to insert the words 'and for prescribing the person to receive or sue for such payments.'"—(Lord Clinton.)

EARL CARRINGTON

accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CLINTON moved to insert the words "being a person entitled to turn out animals on the common." The Bill so far dealt only with persons who possessed common rights, but at this point it went very much beyond that, and endeavoured to deal to some extent with the general public. He did not believe there would be any advantage in bringing the public in in this way, because they were already subject to the provisions of the ordinary law if they turned out animals upon a common, or allowed animals to stray upon a common. The cattle or other stock of a stranger might stray on to the common without the knowledge of the owner; he might be quite ignorant of the regulations made by the commoners; and it seemed somewhat hard that the owner should be exposed to the severe penalty of fourteen days imprisonment for an offence entirely unintentional on his part. This was contrary to the common interpretation of the law, and he hoped the President of the Board of Agriculture would accept his Amendment.

Amendment moved— In page 2, line 12, after the word 'animal' to insert the words 'being a person entitled to turn out animals on the common,' and to leave out the word 'any' and to insert the word 'such.'"—(Lord Clinton.)

EARL CARRINGTON

expressed the hope that the noble Lord would not press the Amendment. It was quite true that outside persons were under the common law, but he did not think the words in the clause would be likely to press hardly on anybody. The mischief done would be the same whether it was done by an outsider or by a person who had common rights. Almost the only persons who would come under the clause would be travelling gipsies and tinkers with their jackasses, and as so much damage had been done in the past he hoped the Amendment would not be insisted upon.

LORD CLINTON

said that many other animals strayed on commons besides gipsies' jackasses; and, if the noble Earl did not wish the words in his Amendment inserted, better provision should be made for making the regulations known to outsiders.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

hoped the Amendment would not be pressed, as it would weaken the hands of the commoners in dealing with this matter.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD CLINTON moved to amend subsection (3)— A meeting for the purposes of this Act may be convened in respect of any common by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries upon the application of any three persons claiming to be entitled to turn out animals upon the common or of the council of the county in which any part of the common is situate, by omitting the words "or of the council of the county in which any part of the common is situate." His object in moving the Amendment was to ascertain why county councils were brought in at all. The matters dealt with under the Bill were entirely domestic concerns. They were matters of interest only to the commoners themselves, and had no connection whatever with the outside public or with the ratepayers or the county generally. The commons which, for obvious reasons, were regulated by the county council or other local authority, were not dealt with under the Bill at all. The Bill dealt solely with commons upon which there were grazing rights divided among a certain number of commoners; yet the subsection gave the county council power to represent to the Board of Agriculture that a meeting of the commoners should be held. The power of calling the meeting rested with the Board of Agriculture, at the instance of three commoners, and he did not think any good could possibly be obtained by placing the county council in the Bill for the one purpose proposed. Even if the county council were successful in getting the meeting called, they had no locus standi whatever at the meeting. They could take no part in it; it was a matter of no public concern whatever of theirs; and he thought it a pity that the county council should be placed in a position of petitioners to the Board of Agriculture upon a dispute of which they could have no knowledge at all.

Amendment moved— In page 2, line 26, to leave out the word 'common' to the end of subsection (3,)"—(Lord Clinton).

EARL CARRINGTON

admitted that it was quite true that the matter was one of domestic concern. But when the subject was first brought forward by a deputation introduced to him by Lord Kenyon, the original proposal was that the county councils themselves should make the regulations without the assent of the commoners. It was thought, however, that that would not be the best way to go to work, and that the commoners should move in the matter themselves. At the same time, although county council might not, as the noble Lord had truly said, have any locus standi, it would be a pity to cut them out altogether and not give them a chance of backing up the lord of the manor and the commoners in their desire to rid the common of these animals. That was all the power they would have, and he hoped the noble Lord would not press the Amendment.

LORD KENYON

opposed the Amendment on the ground that if the matter was left to the commoners themselves, in many cases nothing would be done. He thought it of advantage that there should be a second authority, and hoped the Amendment would be withdrawn.

LORD BELPER

said the County Councils Association had nothing whatever to do with the introduction of the county councils into this provision. He did not think the county councils were at all anxious to have powers given them with regard to matters with which they had nothing whatever to do. The county councils had no power to regulate the turning out of entire animals and had no entire animals to turn out; but if there was any reason for the insertion of this provision he had no objection.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

inquired whether the county council would have any locus standi at the meeting when it had been summoned by the Board of Agriculture at the instance of the county council. He did not see anything in the Bill providing for that.

EARL CARRINGTON

thought the words might with advantage be left in. The provision was simply that a meeting for the purposes of the Act might be convened in respect of any common upon the application of any three persons entitled to turn out animals upon the common, or of the council of the county in which any part of the common was situated.

LORD KENYON

again expressed the hope that the Amendment would be withdrawn. He thought that if county councils would occasionally take charge of such things as the improvement of the breed of animals it would be for the mutual benefit of the people concerned.

LORD CLINTON

agreed. But no power of this kind was given to county councils by the Bill. All that the county councils were enabled to do was to ask the Board of Agriculture to call a meeting.

*THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord FITZ-MAURICE)

understood that the object of the provision was to provide for cases where, for private or other reasons, the commoners themselves were unwilling to do their duty. The Government thought it would be desirable to give an alternative power of setting the machinery in motion, and the county councils were inserted with that object. He would remind the House that since the passing of the Local Government Act, 1888, such a provision was quite an ordinary thing in cases where minor local authorities or other statutory bodies declined to exercise the powers which Parliament had conferred upon them as a trust for the public advantage.

LORD BELPER

did not wish to be misunderstood. He had no objection to county councils being left in; he merely wished to make it clear that it was not at the suggestion of the county councils themselves that they were put in.

*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

could not help thinking that, in the circumstances, their Lordships would do well to retain the words as they stood. Lord Belper, who spoke with great authority on behalf of the county councils, did not raise any objection to conferring this power upon them. On the other hand, it was quite conceivable j that there might be cases where the commoners ought to avail themselves of the powers conferred by the Bill, but did not do so, and in such cases it might be very desirable to fall back on the county council, and allow the county council to move the Board of Agriculture to put the Act in operation.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Session and Chapter. Short Title. Extent of Repeal
3 & 4 Vict. c. 108 The Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Act, 1840. Section 156.
9 & 10 Vict. c. 37 The Coroners (Ireland) Act, 1846. Section 39, from "except" to "District" where the latter word secondly occurs.
23 & 24 Vict. c. 74 The Borough Coroners (Ireland) Act, 1860. Section 2, from "provided always" to the end of the section.

(Lord Denman.)

LORD ASHBOURNE

said that no doubt the details of the schedule had been considered, but perhaps the noble Lord would say more definitely what the repeals were.

LORD DENMAN

replied that the Bill affected certain existing Acts, and the Amendment standing in his name repealed those portions of existing Acts which were unnecessary.

LORD ASHBOURNE

thought that in the Bill before the Committee referential legislation was carried to the maddest point that ever was known, But Bill recommitted to the Standing Committee, and to be printed as amended. (No. 168.)