HL Deb 08 July 1908 vol 191 cc1612-29

rose to submit a preliminary list of minor and vexatious economies adversely affecting the efficiency of the Territorial Army; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I wish to call attention of your Lordships to certain economies at present being made in the Territorial Army, which I think are rather unfortunate and hardly bear out some of the promises made by His Majesty's Government when the Territorial Army Act was brought in. We were told that the Territorial Army was to be reduced in numbers—and reduced it certainly has been—but that it was to be very much increased in efficiency. We were also told that it was to be complete in every part, and would have mobilisation arrangements sufficient to enable it to take the field at once. I regret to say that the administration of the Force so far hardly seems to tend towards that end, and unless an alteration of policy is adopted with regard to the economies which are at present being effected, we shall not get the efficiency anticipated.

The whole question of the efficiency of the Territorial Army depends upon the officers and non-commissioned officers. That is, and always will be, the weak part of any partly amateur Army. Yet one of the first acts of the Government was to abolish a most excellent institution—the Yeomanry school at Netheravon. This school gave a most excellent training to Yeomanry officers, and was well spoken of throughout. The men there worked keenly and the administration was good, picked Cavalry officers being detailed to carry on the training work. At the present moment there is no Yeomanry school, and these officers have to go to be trained to Cavalry regiments as attached officers. Any one who has been a Cavalry officer knows what happens when a Yeomanry officer is attached to a Cavalry regiment. No one cares anything about him. He will never belong to the regiment, and as for any training which he is allowed to get whilst so attached, the whole thing is a perfect farse. He will certainly never lead a troop, as he might make a mistake and the squadron officer might get abused by the officer next senior in command. Therefore, the Yeomanry officer becomes thoroughly bored, and returns to his regiment as ignorant as when he left it.

But in the Yeomanry school things were different. So keen was the work that in many cases the men used to work up to eight and ten o'clock at night in order to pass their examination. A definite object was thus achieved, and the efficiency both of Yeomanry officers and non-commissioned officers was very much advanced. I believe there is a mythical idea of training squadrons going about the country in the dim future to train men. As far as I can make out, these squadrons will have to train officers and non-commissioned officers at one and the same time. The training given to men who sit in the saddle is not the same as that given to a major or captain, who desires instruction in general tactical work. Yet apparently, if the training squadron scheme is carried out on the lines indicated by Lord Granard, this will be the only means of training our officers now that the Yeomanry school has been abolished. I believe the abolition of that school to be a downward step affecting the future efficiency of the Yeomanry officers.

The next economy I wish to draw attention to is in connection with the permanent staff. Three days ago this was a very burning question, but I am glad to hear that an announcement was made to-day that the Government have again issued new regulations on the subject. I will not, therefore, trouble your Lordships with things of the past. But there are certain reductions which it is still necessary to draw attention to. The permanent staff is at all times a perfectly necessary body to the Territorial Army, but more so at the present moment, because recruiting and training are very largely in the hands of the permanent staff. If you make that staff dissatisfied, as they are at present, you will not get efficient work out of them. I understand that their pay in certain circumstances has been altered back to what it was before, but there are still distinct grievances. First of all there is the £18 they used to draw every year for accommodation allowance, and also the £6 10s., the limit allowed for duties outside their regular work. These have been cut down. In cases where accommodation is provided for them in drill halls, or otherwise, the £18 is not paid. Formerly, if their lodging in, say, a little annex to a barracks was rated at £7 a year, they were allowed to draw the balance. That is not so under the present arrangement. The question of travelling warrants is, I believe, under consideration, and I hope that that of the £6 10s. 0d. allowance for work outside regular duties will also be considered, because that is a matter of very great importance to non-commissioned officers doing clerical work.

I turn from the permanent staff to the brigade staff. The £50 allowed to run the brigade office is a very great grievance to Regular officers. They have to pay for a clerk, for office expenses, telegrams, stationery, etc., and these offices cannot be maintained for less than £90 or £100 a year, so that the officers have to make up the balance. Economies in the case of other than Regular officers are to be deprecated; but it is extremely hard, in the case of a soldier who has left his regiment with the idea of drawing from £100 to £150 a year clear pay, that he should have to refund to the Government £40. Yet the Regular officer on half-pay has to make up the difference in order to enable the Government to effect this economy. I think this may justly be described as not very generous conduct.

The next question to which I wish to refer is that of the grant in respect of horses. The Yeomanry were promised in your Lordships' House by Lord Portsmouth, when he occupied the position of Under-Secretary of State for War, that they should draw £5 allowance for every horse in the regiment. We still draw that allowance, but it is subject to certain reductions. In the first place, the horse establishment has been reduced by fifty-three horses per regiment. That does not make for efficiency, since, during the fifteen or sixteen days training, fifty-three men have to be left in camp every day, because there are no horses for them to ride. Yet we were told that the Territorial Army was to be complete in every part. If you do not give the men sufficient horses how are you going to teach them to ride? Under this arrangement you will always have a large number of loafers in camp who have nothing to do, and the result will be that these men will not get sixteen days training. I do not see how it can be said that this will add to the efficiency of the Yeomanry. This £5 allowance per horse is further subject to insurance money and to veterinary expenses incurred during camps and as a result of the training, and sometimes these amounts are very heavy. The man may find that he has lost most of his £5 in veterinary expenses getting his horse back to a sound state of health. I certainly think veterinary assistance is a matter which the State ought to pay for.

Next, I would like to call attention to the unfortunate economies which have been made in the training kit—I mean in wagons, ammunition carts, water carts, saddlery, and other things of that sort, which ought to have been long ago issued to the various units. I hear from three commands that there is a great shortage in this training kit, especially in the direction of wagons and harness for ambulance, transport and supply, and ammunition columns. Under these circumstances it is difficult to get the full amount of training out of the men. It is quite possible that this may not be considered fair criticism seeing that this is the first year of the new force; but it is essential that the maximum amount of training should be got out of the men this year. A sufficient number of Artillery non-commissioned officers are not coming forward to join the Territorial Army, and I believe that to be due to the unfortunate reports which have got about as to the docking of their pay. That may or may not be so, but at all events the number of training sergeants is not up to the establishment, which I think everyone will admit was meagre enough at the best.

Another unfortunate economy has been made in the direction of the doctors' fees, the sum of 2s. 6d. for passing a man as medically fit having been reduced to 1s. The result is that only a certain number of doctors will examine the men, and therefore you have to pay the fares of the men to go to be examined, which may cost more than the money you save. It is said that this economy would lead to regular medical officers doing more work than in the past, but I do not think there is much in that. There is only one depot in a county; many counties have no depot at all, and the travelling expenses of the men going to be examined amount in some places to more than is saved by the reduction. My noble friend Lord Harris proposes to call attention to the question of loss in pay and allowances, and therefore I will not touch upon that.

There is, however, only one other matter to which I should like to refer—the question of mobilisation. We have not up to now seen any mobilisation kit; yet if the Territorial Force is to be efficient it must be able to mobilise at once, otherwise it will be as big a sham as the Volunteer Force was in the past. As far as one can see, no move has yet been made in this direction. I am fully aware that the War Office has had considerable difficulties to contend with and has been compelled to issue a great many new regulations from time to time to meet them. But I think we ought not to shut our eyes to the fact that until we have full opportunities for training the men and making the mobilisation arrangements not a sham but a reality, we shall not have taken any step forward in the line of progress.


who had given notice, "To call attention to the serious loss in pay and allowances suffered by Yeomanry officers of certain ranks under the Territorial Army Regulations, and to various changes in the Regulations as regards Yeomanry training and drill which are not likely to secure greater efficiency," said: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord the Under-Secretary would prefer that I should address my observations to the House now so that he may be able to reply to my noble friend and myself in one speech. Although my noble friend below me acknowledged that it might, perhaps, be rather captious to criticise the Regulations of the Territorial Army too closely in its first year, some of the points to which I propose to call attention are not affected by that admission.

I desire to call your Lordships' attention to the differences in pay which have been suffered by the officers who have transferred from the Yeomanry to the Territorial Army. The Secretary of State for War gave an undertaking in another place that those who transferred from the old Yeomanry to the Territorial Force would be secure in their emoluments. I cannot specify the exact speech in which that statement was made, but I am sure a declaration to that effect was made in the other House by the Secretary of State. Therefore, we were under the impression that in transferring from the Yeomanry to the Territorial Army we would not be losers. The noble Lord may say, "You are free men, you had a month in which to consider the new terms, and, therefore, if you have got worse terms than you had in the Imperial Yeomanry it is your own lookout." That is perfectly true, but it is not the practice of Yeomanry officers to study the pay regulations. They were quite under the impression that they would be no sufferers by the transfer.

I do not pretend to say that the difference in pay to which I shall presently draw the attention of your Lordships is going to cause officers to leave the Territorial Army or to deter others from taking up commissions; but, having regard to the fact that during the past seven years the Yeomanry had progressed more satisfactorily than any other branch of His Majesty's Army, it is an ungrateful return that those gentlemen responsible for that improvement should have a greater pecuniary burden thrown on their shoulders than when they were in their old service. I do not know whether my figures are absolutely correct The noble Lord the Under-Secretary will have an opportunity of criticising them, but I have taken every step, outside of going to the War Office, to secure their accuracy. I calculate that a major with more than two years' service will lose 19s. upon his fifteen days' training, and a major with less than two years' service will lose 7s. 6d. and also the squadron-drill pay which he has drawn annually since the noble Viscount on the Front Opposition Bench, Viscount Midleton, granted a day's pay for two day's squadron drill, making a total of £1 12s. 6d. A captain loses 1s. 10½d. a day, which with his squadron-drill pay, amounts to £2 10s.; a lieutenant loses £2 15s. 2d.; a second lieutenant, £2 14s.2d.; and a veterinary surgeon—the hardest worked man, probably, in the regiment during the fifteen days' training—loses something over £2 11s. These amounts may not appear to your Lordships very serious; but if you apply this to the case of a Regular officer you will find that it amounts, in the case of a subaltern, to docking him of something like £50 of his annual subaltern's pay.

I have mentioned the abolition of the squadron-drill pay. I do not know that, outside the £5 per horse, there was a more useful advantage given by my noble friend below me than squadron-drill pay. It is difficult, in the case of men resident in towns, for them to get to a place where squadron drill can be carried out. The regulations laid down that a certain number had to be present, and it was important to get that number in order that the men might draw squadron-drill pay. The men had to hire in a great many cases, and they hired out of the squadron-drill pay. The abolition of this pay affects some regiments very seriously. I know of one regiment which assembles for two or three days' drill at Easter. It goes to a town where a cavalry regiment is quartered; it has the adantage of horses being lent to it, and it uses the squadron-drill pay for the carriage of the men to and fro and for their messing when they are there. The whole of the cost in the future, as far as I can see, will be thrown either on the men or on the officers. In the same way, one of the squadrons in my regiment assembles for two days previous to the training and puts in its squadron drills in that way. It is a squadron raised entirely in a large town and it has difficulty in doing squadron drill at any other time. By means of the squadron-drill pay it was enabled to put in those two days' drill at a small cost to the men. That has now been altered, and I am afraid that it will place difficulties in the way of the men attending the squadron drill.

I always understood that the object of the great change that has been made—shall I be using too strong a word if I say the confusion that has been created?—and the labour that has been thrown upon large number of civilians, and, presumably, has been thereby taken off the War Office, was greater efficiency. As regards the Yeomanry, the effect will be that they will lose one day's training annually, and the men will have greater difficulty than before in getting to the mounted squadron drills. I endorse entirely what my noble and gallant friend below me has said as to the training of young officers. I remember the old school at Aldershot; Colonel Oakes was in command, and Captain Percy Barrow had charge of the school. It is impossible to conceive a more thorough training than an officer got at that school. You had to do everything on paper; you then had to do everything with rope drill in the yard; and then you went out in the field on horseback and did the same thing; and if a young officer was not thoroughly trained, not only to lead a troop, but to lead a squadron—and he might be even certified to be competent to command a regiment—it was absolutely his own fault. Now that is all changed.

There were a great many Yeomanry officers who preferred the idea of a young officer being sent to a regiment. I never have preferred that, for this reason. The capacity of imparting your own knowledge to other people is not given to everyone, and it may so happen that in a regiment there is not one squadron leader who is capable of imparting what he knows himself, and yet he may be the smartest possible officer; whereas the officer at the school was engaged in the practice of teaching during the whole of the year, and he could not help being an efficient schoolmaster. I know this from my own experience. These young officers now come back not nearly as well trained as the young officers who were at the Yeomanry school. Although attached to a regiment they are not even given a troop to lead during the whole course of the month. How, therefore, can they be expected, when they return, to be competent to lead men who are not so well trained as regulars? I hope we shall see a training squadron in every divisional area, and that at the head will be an officer who is competent to teach. Otherwise there will be no advantage in the training squadron over the present system.

There is another thing. Remember it is claimed that the new regulations are going to produce greater efficiency. Whereas under the old regulations a young officer was compelled to go to the school at Aldershot or to a regiment, as the case might be, within the first two years of his service, he now need not go until he is within sight of the command of a squadron, which may not be for six or seven years, and then he need only go for a fortnight. I should imagine that commanding officers would take care that their officers did go, but it is not provided by the regulations. So far as the War Office are concerned, they have lowered the chance of a young officer's being properly trained, and that is not likely to conduce to greater efficiency. I also endorse what my noble and gallant friend has said regarding the allowance that was given for veterinary expenses subsequent to training. I think that to cut off the veterinary expenses after they have been given during the last five or six years is very harsh. It is often no fault of the man that his horse is injured or goes sick. I had a number of cases of sickness last year. There happened to be a particularly cold snap the first night, and sixteen or seventeen horses were laid up with pneumonia. I had previously applied for blankets, but they were refused. I think it is very hard that men who put in this service should have to pay veterinary expenses out of their own pocket. In many speeches made in the country as to what was going to be done under the Territorial Army scheme, promises were, I submit, given that no man who served should suffer in pocket, and it seems to me that something like a breach of that engagement has taken place. The new men will receive, I estimate, about 1s. 6d. a day less than the old Yeomen, and I am honestly afraid that when that difference comes to be noticed during next year's training it will detract from the popularity of the Force. As long as the Force was properly treated there was no chance of its falling off in numbers or in efficiency. I hope that in the course of the next year the Secretary of State may be disposed to reconsider the matter, and, if possible, grant some concessions which will make up for what the officers and men have lost.


My Lords, I have to thank the noble Lords who have spoken for having given me notice of the points which they intended to raise, and I will endeavour to deal with them as shortly as I can. First of all, there was the question of the form of instruction given to young officers. We quite agree, to a certain point, that the instruction which was imparted to the young officers at Netheravon was in most cases superior to that which they received when they were attached to a Regular regiment, and if the accommodation at Netheravon were unlimited and the training staff available it would propably have conduced to higher efficiency if we had been able to continue the arrangement. But that was not the case, and now the higher training given to the Regular Cavalry absorbs all our resources there. We propose, however, to form instructional classes—not necessarily on the lines of the training squadron spoken of at an earlier stage of this scheme—in each command in the country, which we hope young officers will be able to attend. As to the permanent staff, that has been dealt with in a circular which is shortly to be issued, and which will meet a good many of the points raised by Lord Lovat.

With regard to housing, we have always regarded the £18 as strictly a lodging allowance, and not as a sum to be spent partly on lodging and partly as a bonus to the men. We feel, therefore, that, if quarters are available in which properly to house the instructor, the purpose of the lodging allowance is served, and that he is not entitled to whatever may be left of the £18 over the value of the housing afforded him. The sum of £6 10s. is what we consider to be the right amount to be given per company under normal conditions. Should exceptional conditions arise under which it is inevitable that the expenses should be greater, we shall treat those as special cases and shall be prepared to meet them and make a larger grant. But, after having gone very carefully into the question, we think that under ordinary conditions the grant of £6 10s. per company ought to be sufficient.

Then there is the question of the brigade staff. The expenses with regard to the brigade staff have steadily mounted up. First of all the brigade-major received, I think, £100 and the brigadier £150, with £25 for office expenses. Then to that was added the £40 travelling allowance, and now, under the present scheme, we have doubled the grant for office expenses, and we pay £50 to the County Association for the headquarters of the brigade; this is given as an administrative grant. That, we think, ought to cover the expenses. With all due respect to what Lord Lovat has said, I think it is impossible at this early stage to say that the running of the headquarters of a brigade is going to cost £90 or £100. We cannot see that there is anything in this scheme which is going so largely to increase the work of the brigadier and the brigade-major that it will not be adequately covered by doubling, as we have done, the grant for office expenses. In all these things we are at the present moment more or less in the dark, and if, in time to come, it is found that this is inadequate, and that the expenses are out of all proportion to the grant, that would be a fair case to bring up, and we should be glad to consider it on its merits.

With regard to the establishment of horses in the Yeomanry, what is taken into account is that you must have a certain number of men whose duties will confine them to camp, and who will not have a chance of going out with the regiment. Therefore there is no need to mount them. I think the Yeomanry are to have eight dismounted men per squadron. A Regular Cavalry regiment has, I think, twelve dismounted men per squadron, and the war establishment of the old Yeomanry was ten dismounted men per squadron. I know that in a Yeomanry regiment you are bound to have a certain number of casualties among the horses, and that it is very useful to have spare horses on which to mount the men. That raises the very big question of whether you are to take what amounts to a reserve of horses to camp, and that is a question which must be considered on its merits. It is impossible to turn out the whole of the strength you take to camp, even if you have horses for them, and I do not see that you require horses for men who cannot, in any circumstances, go out to camp. The new scheme only allows for that, and provides that horses shall not be required for those men who have to stay in camp.

The issue of materiel generally has been a very big and difficult work. We have done our best to get it out in time, but if the noble Lord knows of cases where harness and wagons and equipment generally are available and have not been served out I hope he will bring them before us, because the thing we wish above all others is to equip the Territorial Army as rapidly as possible. Then reference was made to the present paucity of instructors, particularly in the Artillery. I have said before in this House, and I say it again, that the provision of instructors for the Territorial Field Artillery at the present moment is a matter of the utmost difficulty. It is the worst time in the whole year for finding these men. All our Regular Artillery officers are going out for training, practice camps, and the rest of it, and on the work they do will depend their reports for the year, which are of the greatest importance to the individuals concerned. It would be very hard on an officer commanding a battery if you asked him to hand over to the Territorial Force two or three of his best non-commissioned officers just when he was going out to practice camp. Therefore I would beg of the Territorial Force generally that they should exercise patience in this matter. We are going to supply these men as quickly as we possibly can, but it would be disastrous if you insisted on their being sent at such a time. It would mortify the Regular Artillery, and it would not tend to improve the relations between them and the Territorial Field Artillery. If the Territoral Artillery will exercise patience we shall be able to supply them with men in the long run, and it would not be of any advantage to press the matter now.

As to the doctors' fees, a grant is made of 1s. for every recruit who is passed. A considerable percentage of the recruits have been examined either by the regimental doctor or by some public-spirited and patriotic local practitioner, who has done the work for nothing. We have every reason to believe, in view of the extremely generous and public-spirited way in which the whole medical profession has come forward to help this scheme, that we shall continue to receive their assistance. But the County Associations will draw their 1s. for every man whether he has been examined free or not, and we hope that this will enable them to meet those cases where a fee of 2s. 6d. has to be paid. I do not think that in all cases you will have to pay as much as 2s. 6d. It was stated at a meeting which Lord Lovat and I attended to-day that in one county—and it was a Scottish county—the doctors did the work for 1s.

As to mobilisation, we are working out the general mobilisation requirements and we are trying to meet them with the equipment that we have. The work is not as yet in an advanced stage. The officials at the War Office have worked in a splendid way, but our time has been taken up in meeting immediate requirements. But I can assure the noble Lord that the mobilisation requirements are by no means forgotten, and that it is our intention to work them out in full and to have the equipment ready as soon as possible. As to pay, to which Lord Harris referred, if my memory serves me the pledges that were given as regards the Yeomanry being allowed to continue at their own rates of pay until the end of their term applied to the men but not to the officers. The officers did not join for a definite term as the men did. I have the figures here as to the actual pay of the officers, but they are in a slightly different form from that given by Lord Harris, and I could not check his figures. Under the previous scheme the officer had to pay for the forage of his horse, but now the forage is found for him.


I made that allowance.


In that case I think our figures differ. Under the old scheme a lieutenant-colonel commanding drew, in pay and allowances, 31s. 6d.; at the present time he draws 34s. 6d. That is a clear gain of 3s. Besides that, you have to take into account the foraging of his horse, which we put down at 1s. 4d.


I did not mention the colonel at all.


The noble Lord exercised a wise discretion in leaving him out.


I dealt with those officers who have suffered loss.


A major under the old scheme received 25s.; he will now receive 24s. 6d., the forage for the horse being equivalent to 1s. 4d. The major second in command, received 26s. under the old scheme; he now receives 25s. 6d.; the ordinary major now receives 24s., as against 25s. under the old scheme. The captain will receive 21s. 1½d., as against 23s.; the lieutenant 15s. 2d., as against 17s. 8d.; and the second lieutenant 14s. 2d., as against 16s. 8d. But, of course, there must be added to what they now receive the forage for the horse, which is equivalent to 1s. 4d. We admit that there is here a certain amount of modification in the pay of the lower ranks of officers, but, on the whole, in the future they will come out the gainers, for the reason that in future all new officers will draw £20 outfit allowance and be provided with saddlery.


How about the veterinary officer?


I am sorry I have not got the figures with regard to the veterinary officer.


A wise discretion on the part of the Under-Secretary.


Then I come to the question of squadron-drill pay. I am sure all noble Lords will agree with what has been said as to the admirable and efficient body represented by the Yeomanry Force, and as to their value in our military scheme. But it should not be forgotten that the Yeomanry have enjoyed exceptional advantages in respect of pay for squadron drill. When the Yeomanry and the Volunteers are now members of one and the same Force, it is obviously difficult to continue these exceptional advantages in the matter of pay, which are not given to their comrades in the other branch of the Force. Pay for drill has never been given to the Volunteers; it has been confined to the training camp period; and I have heard no overwhelming argument to show that the Yeomanry should be placed in a different position from the Volunteers.


The Volunteers have not had to find horses.


The men who bring their own horses to camp and draw the £5 can bring their own horses to the drill. Those who hire horses can arrange that the £5 they pay will cover the hire for drill; and if there are any men not included in this you have £150 per squadron for horse-hire which ought to be sufficient.


We had that before.


The General Office Commanding can, if he thinks it will conduce to the increased efficiency of the Yeomanry, pay for extra days training Finally, as regards the training of young officers, we do not lay down any longer the rule that they must carry out their instructional course during the first two years after joining the regiment. On the other hand, we do not propose to give way in respect of the efficiency to be exacted An actually higher standard is set than has been the case when it comes to be a question of promotion. At the same time, a greater amount of elasticity is allowed through not confining the instruction to the first two years after joining the regiment. Some of the keenest and best officers have found it impossible in the first two years to go through their instructional course. I think I have now answered all the points raised.


Can the noble Lord tell us what the net saving is on the whole cost of the Yeomanry by these changes of pay and allowances?


I cannot carry those figures in my head; but I can say that the whole of the Territorial Force is estimated to cost £500,000 more than the Yeomanry and Volunteers cost before.


I think that generalisation is rather an unfortunate one, because it does not tend to reassure us. Your Lordships are quite aware that up to the time of the reorganisation of the Yeomanry there was great difficulty in filling the ranks of both men and officers. That was overcome, and for some years; there has been no difficulty in filling the ranks, and the certificates of efficiency given by the inspecting officer were, as I know, having seen most of them, absolutely convincing as to the advantage of the change. But now the noble Lord has given us, in reply to my noble friends, a long list of the adjustments and modifications in the pay and allowances of officers, and he has been warned by both noble Lords that the effect of these changes has not been at all advantageous to either the officers or the men of the Force. I do not wish to enter, on this occasion certainly, into the whole question of the advisability of what has been done with regard to the Territorial Army; but I urge the noble Lord not to allow the establishment of some fancied equality between the Yeomanry and the Territorial Infantry and Volunteers to lead him to make just those changes which will impair efficiency and prevent our obtaining the same class of men and the same number of officers as before. We have almost everything connected with the Army in the melting-pot at the present moment. The one Force in connection with which nothing could be said was the Yeomanry, which was full of men and had its full complement of officers. I take exception, if I may venture to do so, to the noble Lord's tone, establishing a reason for this and that; the main thing is that the noble Lord cannot show that there is substantial economy. There might be something to be said for the reduction if the money must be applied in other quarters. If these modifications should tend to a considerable change in the present highly useful condition of the Yeomanry Force, then I think nobody will regret it more than those who are responsible on the front bench. Therefore, I would ask the noble Lord not to allow this discussion to terminate in his mind with what has been said to-day, and not to allow a fancied consistency to stand in the way of leaving matters where they were if a change is not clearly for the public advantage.


My Lords, I had a Motion down to move for Papers, but as this is only a preliminary list of the economies which have been effected, I do not propose to move for Papers at the present time. But I would like to call attention to two important admissions which have been made by Lord Lucas—first, that the training this year has been very short of permanent staff; and, secondly, that there has been a shortage of materiel. The training, therefore, cannot have been so good as it might have been in a normal year. I hope His Majesty's Government will bear this in mind, and that arrangements will be made for winter classes this year.


Perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to ask a Question arising out of the Answer he has just given. He stated that, whatever statements were made with regard to their being no loss of pay on transfer to the Territorial Army, those statements were never meant to apply to officers. Therefore, the noble Lord admits that a promise was made to the men. How, then, does he excuse the withdrawal of the squadron-drill pay?


We have never considered the squadron drill as part of the training. What we said was that the men who did transfer should continue their present rate of pay during the training period and until the end of their term of service, and that has been carried out.

House adjourned at five minutes past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.