HL Deb 14 December 1908 vol 198 cc1196-204

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee."—(Earl Carrington.)

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

, who had given notice, on the Motion that the House do resolve itself into Committee, to move that the Bill be referred to a Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills, said: My Lords, before the Question is actually put, the Amendment which stands in my name should be disposed of. I venture to recur to the discussion which took place a few days ago, at the conclusion of which the noble Earl the Leader of the House rather implied that some of us on this side had been unfair to the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture. I do not think that is the case, and I would say, in passing, that I am sure there is no Member of the Government to whom we less desire to be unfair than to the noble Earl the Minister for Agriculture. But it is really, I think, a large strain upon our good nature to ask us at this period of the session to pass this Bill. I think it would have been much wiser to have taken the Second Reading earlier, and given longer time for Committee. This really is more than a consolidating Bill. This was pointed out the other day, and there are Amendments on the Paper in the names of Lord Camperdown and Lord Saltoun, showing that there are material points in which it is more than a Consolidation Bill. It imports new matter. Another instance of this was brought to my notice this morning. If a tenant under the existing Act desires a piece of drainage done, the landlord has three alternatives—he may let the tenant do it, he may do it himself, or he may endeavour to agree on the amount of compensation to be awarded on its being done. In this Bill, however, the option of the landlord to do it himself is cut away altogether, and he can only do it himself after he has contended with the tenant and failed to come to an agreement. I hold strongly that when drainage work has to be done it is bad policy to leave it to the tenant, and that it is very much wiser that the landlord should do the work himself. I venture to think that it is not reasonable, in what professes to be a Consolidation Bill, to cut out that alternative. The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack will bear me out when I say that during the past session we have had a most successful operation of a Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills. A long and intricate Companies Bill, a Post Office Consolidation Bill, and a Statute Law Revision Bill have been gone through by that Committee without a single division, and we have made schedules of Amendments of three classes: those which are purely drafting, those which make no material change, and those which make some material change but are extremely desirable on account of judicial decisions and other matters; and I believe every one of those three Bills has a good prospect of being placed on the Statute-book this session. The whole policy of consolidation is difficult, and it will become more so if it is thought that in the guise of consolidation material amendments of the law can be made. It is in the interests of consolidation, which is a most useful work, that I plead, and plead very earnestly, for due consideration of this matter. And I still think, even at this late hour, that it would be wiser if the noble Lord would allow this Bill to go to the Committee I have indicated. I press it for this additional reason, that there are two or three matters in regard to this legislation which require amendment. There is the question of sheep valuation. Everybody knows the difficulties we got into by allowing to be accepted too hurriedly the hasty advice of one of the Law Officers of the Crown. Then there is the question of temporary pasture, as to which a lively correspondence has been going on for weeks in some of the agricultural papers in Scotland. We cannot touch these matters in this Bill when passing through Committee of the Whole House and at this period of the session, but we could do so if the Bill were referred to a Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills, If my arguments do not prevail I shall not, of course, at this time of the evening, put the House to the trouble of a division, but I do think this is a much less safe method than the method proposed in my Amendment of proceeding with Consolidation Bills, and one likely to discredit the whole process of consolidation.

Amendment moved— To leave out all the words after the word 'that' for the purpose of inserting the following words, 'the Bill be referred to a Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.'"—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (Earl CARRINGTON)

My Lords, I very respectfully hope that I may be permitted to have my Bill. It is a very small one. In reference to what the noble Earl said respecting what fell from my noble friend and Leader the other day in his chivalrous defence of myself, it did seem a little hard on me, after the strenuous efforts that I had made to meet noble Lords opposite, that I should not be allowed to have the Bill. The Bill was introduced in the latter part of October, and I gave ample time for its consideration before taking the Second Reading. Of courses, I am entirely in the hands of the House, but on behalf of Scotland, to which nation, unhappily, I do not belong, but for which I have the greatest respect, I would make an appeal to my noble friend to be merciful and not press his Amendment.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, I venture to sympathise with the noble Earl the Minister for Agriculture. He has had a great deal of work, and, perhaps, very little assistance in connection with this Bill, and it would, in my opinion, be a great pity if the Bill were not passed. I understand that the noble Earl is prepared to accept the Amendments on the Paper which make the Bill a purely Consolidation Bill, and I would suggest that he might next session bring forward a Bill embodying any desirable Amendments. I think that would be the simpler and better course. In the circumstances, I hope my noble friend Lord Balfour will withdraw his Amendment.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to join in the request to Lord Balfour to listen to the pathetic appeal made by the Minister for Agriculture, and let him have his Bill. As Lord Saltoun has pointed out, the noble Earl is prepared to accept the Amendments which stand in his name and in mine. It is very undesirable to introduce in a Consolidation Bill anything which approaches to new matter, and therefore I think my noble friend Lord Carrington would be well advised if he would accept Lord Saltoun's suggestion and introduce an amending Bill early next session, dealing with points that are in dispute. In the meantime I hope the noble Earl may be allowed to have his Bill.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

I shall not proceed with my Motion. I have drafted an Amendment that will cure the point to which I alluded, and I will put it down for a subsequent stage.

* THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

My Lords, I still venture to think the course proposed by Lord Balfour was an eminently reasonable one. This Bill professes to be a Consolidation Bill and nothing more, and it seems to me that the only way in which you can establish satisfactorily that any Bill professing to be a Consolidation Bill does not go beyond consolidation is by having that Bill thoroughly examined before the proper Committee. Therefore I think that would have been the better course to take, but I am bound to say the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture has succeeded in producing upon the House a great impression I by the earnestness of his plea, and he achieved a crowning triumph in having softened the often hard heart of my noble friend Lord Camperdown. In the face of that I really will not pursue my opposition further. But I take it it is agreed that the noble Earl is prepared to accept any Amendments which can be shown to be necessary in order to bring the Bill back to the strict shape of a Consolidation Bill?

EARL CARRINGTON

That is my absolute intention and my most earnest desire.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 to 5 agreed to.

Clause 6:

LORD SALTOUN moved to amend subsection (2), which provided that a claim by the tenant of a holding for compensation in respect of any improvement comprised in the first Schedule should not be made unless notice of intention to make the claim had been given before the determination of the tenancy. He suggested alterations which would make the subsection read— A claim by the tenant of a holding for compensation under this Act in respect of any improvement comprised in the First Schedule to this Act shall not be made after the determination of the tenancy. The section as it at present stood would, he said, make it possible for a tenant to make a claim at any time after he had left the farm, and it might happen that by the time the claim was made the whole of the evidence necessary to rebut the claim might have disappeared by the operations of the new tenant. It was to meet this point, and to avoid unnecessary litigation that he proposed his Amendment.

Amendment moved— In page 3, line 30, to leave out from the word 'made' to the second word 'the' in line 31, and to insert the word 'after.'"—(Lord Saltoun.)

EARL CARRINGTON

accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— In page 3, line 36, to leave out the words 'notice may be given,' and to insert the words 'claim may be made.'"—(Lord Saltoun.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD SALTOUN moved an Amendment requiring that the notice to be given under subsection (3) should be "by registered letter or otherwise." These words were in the 1900 Act, and he moved their insertion here in order that there should be evidence that the notice had been given.

Amendment moved— In page 4, line 5, after the word 'given,' to insert the words 'by registered letter or otherwise.'"—(Lord Saltoun.)

EARL CARRINGTON

accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 7 to 10 agreed to.

Clause 11:

EARL CARRINGTON moved to amend subsection (5)— (5)Any person who wilfully and corruptly gives false evidence before an arbiter or oversman in any arbitration under this Act shall be guilty of perjury, and may be dealt with, prosecuted, and punished accordingly, by omitting the words "or oversman." He believed "oversman" was Scottish for "umpire," and as the arbitrations under the Bill were before a single arbitrator there could not be either oversman or umpire.

Amendment moved— In page 7, line 16, to leave out the words 'or oversman.'"—(Earl Carrington.)

LORD SALTOUN

inquired whether the word "oversman" in this connection referred to sheep valuation. If so, under sheep valuation there were two arbitrators, and, therefore, it might be desirable to retain the word.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said the contention of the Government was that, as the words stood, sheep valuation was not touched. Whether that was correct or not was a matter of opinion, but if the Government really meant that sheep valuation was not to be affected he would strongly advise the noble Earl to leave in the word oversman.

EARL CARRINGTON said this was a very vexed question, and if the matter were allowed to stand over until the Report stage he would in the meantime consult the Law Officers of the Crown.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 11 agreed to.

Clauses 12 to 16 agreed to.

Clause 17:

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 18 agreed to.

Clause 19:

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

said it had been his intention to move an Amendment in this clause, but he had since discovered, at the bottom of page 18, this definition— Anything which by or under this Act is required or authorised to be done to, by, or in respect of the landlord of a holding may be done to, by, or in respect of any agent of the landlord duly authorised in that behalf. Therefore, he took it that it was unnecessary to insert words referring to the agent in each case where the landlord was mentioned.

LORD CLINTON

said the definition of landlord given at the top of page 18 was— 'Landlord' means any person for the time being entitled to receive the rents and profits or to take possession of any holding. This did not include the agent.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

There is no Amendment before the House upon this clause. Does the noble Lord move any Amendment?

LORD CLINTON

then moved to amend subsection (d)— (d) If the landlord makes no such intimation within one month, the lease shall be binding on the landlord and the legatee respectively, as landlord and tenant, as from the date of the death of the deceased tenant, by inserting, after the words "If the landlord," the words "or his known agent."

Amendment moved— In page 11, line 6, after the word 'landlord' to insert the words 'or his known agent.'"—(Lord Clinton.)

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

said that, in his opinion, the Amendment was rendered unnecessary by the definition at the bottom of page 18 to which he had referred, but he suggested that in any case the matter might stand over until the next stage.

LORD CLINTON

agreed to withdraw the Amendment on the understanding that he would move it again on Third Reading if necessary.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 19 agreed to.

Clause 20:

LORD CLINTON moved to leave out the words "notice of removal" in subsection (5) of Clause 20 (tenants' property in fixtures and buildings), in order to insert "such notice." He pointed out that the words "notice of removal" had a limited or technical meaning in agricultural law and in leases and agreements between landlord and tenant in Scotland. The Amendment made no difference in the sense of the clause.

Amendment moved— In page 12, lines 16 and 17, to leave out the words 'notice of removal,' and to insert the words 'such notice.'"—(Lord Clinton.)

EARL CARRINGTON

accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— In page 12, lines 10 and 17, to leave out the words 'of removal.'"—(Lord Clinton.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— In page 12, line 19, to leave out the words 'of removal,' and to insert the words 'given by the tenant as aforesaid.'"—(Lord Clinton.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 20, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 21, agreed to.

Clause 22:

Drafting Amendment, agreed to.

Clause 22, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 23 to 34 agreed to.

Clause 35:

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN moved to leave out the words— 'Agreement' includes an agreement arrived at by means of valuation or otherwise, and 'agreed' has a corresponding meaning. He thought the meaning of the word "agreement" was well understood, and hitherto there had been no definition. If the words meant nothing, no purpose was served by inserting them, while if they had a special meaning they introduced something new. As at present advised he could not see their object, as they merely provided that an agreement included an agreement.

Amendment moved— In page 18, to leave out lines 28, 29, and 30."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

EARL CARRINGTON

accepted the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 35, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Standing Committee negatived; the report of Amendments to be received on Thursday next, and Bill to be printed as amended. [No. 254.]