HL Deb 29 May 1907 vol 174 cc1599-607
LORD MONKSWELL

My Lords, I rise to call attention to instructions issued by the War Office on 31st October last to the various military commands with reference to giving technical instruction to soldiers to fit them for civil life; to ask what steps have been taken by commanding officers in accordance with such instructions, what facilities have been given to soldiers to obtain technical instruction, and how far they have availed themselves of such facilities; and to move for Papers.

It may be in the recollection of some of your Lordships that last session I took exception to the action of the Government in not completely following out the recommendations of Sir Edward Ward's Committee on this question. That Committee recommended that the soldier should be given every facility to learn a trade, and also that he should be required to learn a trade. The Government, however, have thrown over the second recommendation, and have only partially adopted the first. In recruiting you have two objects in view—namely, to get the best men you can, and to keep out the bad men. Those objects are mutually dependent. There is no greater obstacle to recruiting than the knowledge on the part of good men that they may possibly be required to associate with undesirable persons, and if undesirable persons are kept out you will not only get better recruits but in the long run more recruits. The best way to keep out undesirables is, in my opinion, to tell the soldier on enlistment that he will be compelled to learn a trade. The Government, however, have done nothing to keep idlers out of the Army, or to secure-that when idlers get into the Army they shall be idlers no longer.

In several respects the Government have not only refused to adopt, but have gone absolutely counter to, the recommendations of Sir Edward Ward's Committee. In their circular letter they state that in all cases, whatever trade the soldier takes up, he shall be compelled to pay part of the cost himself. That is not in accordance with the recommendation of Sir Edward Ward's Committee, but absolutely contrary. The Committee recommended— In some of the subjects a portion of the expense should be borne by the men, the instruction and materials being expensive. That means, of course, that where the materials are not costly and the instruction not very expensive the soldier should be entitled to be taught the trade free. It seems to me that the Government are doing their best to make a dead letter of this important recommendation.

The various agencies which endeavour to obtain employment for ex-soldiers point out that they are confronted not only by the difficulty of the soldier not being trained for civil life, but that they have to face the difficulty that in many cases he is shy of work and refuses to accept any situation where hard work is involved. This state of things is partly due to the demoralising influence of the life of the infantry soldier. On this point I would quote what was said by a gallant officer who spoke with considerable authority on that matter. I refer to General Sir Frederick Fitz-wygram, who frequently called attention in the House of Commons to the absolute necessity of giving soldiers instruction which would fit them for civil life; but I am afraid that his efforts in that respect met with as little success as have my own. On 10th June,1892, General Fitzwygram pointed out that there was no difficulty in recruiting except for the infantry, and that is the case at the present day. In the course of his speech on that occasion—I am quoting from Hansard—General Fitzwygram said— Looking at the causes, I think the failure of the infantry lies in the exceedingly idle life which the infantry soldier is compelled to lead during his seven years of service. Beyond an hour or two's drill and a little cleaning he has nothing to do, and therefore it is unreasonable to suppose that such a man would readily take to the hard work which is part of civil life. And again he said— I look on this question of the employment of infantry soldiers during their period of service as the important element in relation to recruiting. When a man leaves the service to loaf about, he damages that service, and damages, too, the recruiting; but were the infantry soldier fairly well employed during his seven years of service I believe that he would prosper on regaining civil life. Those are very strong words, and it appears to me that if they are to any extent true, they prove that our system of recruiting is unjust and cruel to the men and most detrimental to the public service. At present the soldier may be as idle as he pleases, and, naturally, when he leaves the Army he is an incapable, and his failure to get work discourages others from enlisting. Everything has been done apparently to prevent recruiting being a success, and then people express astonishment and clamour for conscription. The sort of recruits who go into the Army in order to live an idle life are the bad bargains of the service; they are the men who desert, who malinger, and who keep good men out of the Army. It seems to me that if you were to tell the recruit on joining that he must learn a trade during his term of service you would attract only good men into the Army and men who desired to make the most of their opportunities.

I notice that the Association for the Employment of Discharged Soldiers, which is under the direct patronage of the War Office, pointed out in their last Report that— It was more difficult this year than ever to obtain employment, especially for unskilled men. The whole of the Report is extremely eloquent on the subject of the old soldier being given preferential employment, but it is absolutely silent with regard to the important question of the industrial training of the soldier while in the Army. I think the soldier is entitled to have preferential employment, but, after all, that is but a surface remedy; it is merely skin plaster, and does not touch the root of the evil, which is that the soldier is not an employable person in civil life. I am very much obliged to the noble Marquess opposite who presided at the meeting of the Association for the Employment of Discharged Soldiers at which the Report from which I have quoted was presented, for what he said on that occasion. I think he was the only speaker at the meeting who called attention to the necessity that the soldier should be given some instruction that would be of use to him in civil life.

I wish to call attention very briefly to the Report on Recruiting, and to quote one sentence which seems to me of the utmost importance. At the end of his yearly Report the Director of Recruiting says— Several districts, in their annual Reports, have stated that if the recommendations of the Ward Committee were carried out the recruiting problem would be solved, and there is no doubt whatever that the adoption of the recommendations would go a considerable distance towards the solution. I would ask the noble Earl whether it might not be possible to publish some, at all events, of the district Reports on recruiting, so that we might know what the view is in the district commands with regard to the recommendations of the Ward Committee. I wish to know whether the circular letter issued by the War Office has produced any result at all. My information is that it has produced none, and that it is absolutely a dead letter.

The noble Earl will find it suggested in the War Office Circular, at the top of page 2, that the preliminary arrangements would best be carried out by a committee of officers interested in technical instruction, who would not only suggest methods of instruction but get into touch with the technical institutes in the towns in which soldiers are quartered. I wish to know if anything has been done in that direction. It is said that commanding officers are as a rule hostile to the system of training soldiers for employment. The noble Earl opposite, Lord Donoughmore, when he was Undersecretary of State for War, said, in speaking on this question, that the British officer was an old-world Tory, compared to whose toryism the toryism of noble Lords opposite was as moonlight is to sunlight or as water is to wine. His suggestion was that British officers were such absolutely immovable Tories that they would not look at any new idea at all. I confess I have better hopes of commanding officers than the noble Earl opposite. I hope that, even though they may think it is time wasted, they will defer to superior authority and do their best to carry into effect the recommendations of Sir Edward Ward's Committee. If they do they will add enormously to the great debt of gratitude they have already earned at the hands of their countrymen. To turn the Army into an excellent school for civil life is, I think, the most important military reform that has ever come before the country, and I do hope that the Government will stiffen their backs and insist that every recommendation of the Ward Committee should be carried into effect. I beg to move for Papers.

Moved, "That an humble address be presented to His Majesty for Papers relating to the answers received to the circular issued by the War Office on the 31st October last, to the various military commands with reference to giving technical instruction to soldiers to fit them for civil life."—(Lord Monkswell.)

*THE UNDER-SECRETAEY OF STATE FOR WAR (The Earl of PORTSMOUTH)

My Lords, my noble friend has covered a large amount of ground, and I hope he will not consider that I am in any way wanting in sympathy with many of the views he has expressed if I feel bound to confine myself, more or less, to the actual points contained in the Question on the Paper. I think that perhaps the most straightforward and best course I could adopt would be to state as briefly as I can exactly what has taken place since the noble Lord brought the question forward in November of last year, and I laid on the Table a circular letter dated 31st October, which was issued by the War Office to the various commands at home and abroad.

We have received at the War Office a great number of replies in response to that circular. I do not propose to lay upon the Table the whole of the official literature which has accumulated; some of it is of a partly confidential character, and some of it is too detailed, but I have had a careful précis made which I propose to lay on the Table of the House in reply to my noble friend's Motion. In that précis all the salient points in the replies will be clearly set out. From it your Lordships will see what steps the general officers commanding in each of the eight large commands have taken to comply with the instructions contained in the circular letter. Considerable difficulties have been presented, and I think I ought in fairness to state that the commanding officers lay great stress on the very discouraging attitude in regard to this matter which has been taken up by some of the trade unions. If I remember aright, my noble friend gave us to understand, in the autumn of last year, that the trade unions would not feel themselves aggrieved in this matter, and that their jealousies would not be aroused. Your Lordships will see in the précis which I propose to lay that several of the general officers commanding state most clearly that in this matter we have to overcome, to put the matter in a very mild form, a considerable amount of opposition on the part of the trade unions. Lord Grenfell, writing from Ireland, states— All the large firms approached say that the trade, unions make it impossible for them to offer facilities for training without Government intervention. And the General Officer Commanding the Eastern command, Lord Methuen, says that— The trade union system, as at present regulated, seems fatal to the success of soldiers in skilled trades. The General Officer Commanding in Scotland writes— There is little doubt that the trade unions would take prompt measures to prevent ex-soldiers from getting employment to the detriment of men who have passed through the mill. The question from the industrial point of view is not such a simple and easy one as some of your Lordships might have supposed; and I confess to a little disappointment that we have not been able to make more progress in this matter.

In the précis the possibilities of civil and military employment are enumerated. Suggestions are made as to which trades are best suited to local requirements, several additional trades being added to those mentioned in the circular. All the Reports made have been considered by the Advisory Committee. Two circular letters have been issued dealing with the value of civil technical schools and with the great possibilities of instruction in agriculture and telegraphy. These I also propose to lay. Last year we were allotted£1,000 for training, the principal part of which has been spent on new motorcars, motor driving commending itself as an occupation to many of the men. Certain sums were provided for general capital expenditure in workshops. This year a much larger sum has been placed on the Estimates than last year, the amount having been raised to £2,500. I hope this is some indication that we are not neglecting this matter.

The question of compelling men to learn a trade as a condition of joining the Army is a very large one, and I am not entitled to express an opinion on the subject without much more thorough knowledge than I now possess. It will be necessary to hear the opinions of those who are experienced in recruiting. A Committee at the War Office, of which I was Chairman, has been considering the question of the Army schools. The principal reason why we have to maintain these schools is that it is necessary to educate adult soldiers, a large proportion coming from the country with which my noble friend opposite (Lord Donoughmore) is connected, and where they do not enjoy such efficient elementary education as exists in England and Scotland. Evidence was given before the Committee that the great difficulty was that, though a large number of these men joined the adult classes, after a time they "tailed off" and ceased to attend. That, I am sorry to say, is what we were told by those personally acquainted with the matter in regard to these classes of technical instruction.

We have already asked the general officers commanding for suggestions regarding the distribution of the £2,500 provided in the present year's Estimates. We shall keep in touch through our Standing Committee at headquarters with the local committees, and with the Automobile Club, or any other associations that may be of assistance, and in conjunction with the general officers commanding, we hope to co-ordinate central and local efforts. It is not quite fair to imply that some general officers show a want of interest, or adopt almost an obstructive policy as regards the question of technical instruction. I do not think we have any evidence of that. I feel that this is a matter in which we have to proceed extremely tentatively. Our Army is a voluntary Army, and, however much one may wish that the soldiers would undertake certain additional duties, it is necessary to consider very carefully a step which they may regard as a restriction of their personal liberty. I shall be glad to lay Papers on the Table.

THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE

My Lords, I cannot refrain from rising to the fly that was thrown by the noble Earl who has just sat down, being naturally stung by his suggestion to the effect that the Army schools have to be kept up because the recruits from Ireland are so illiterate.

THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH

I did not say all, but a large proportion.

THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE

If I may judge by what I saw when at the War Office, the English and Scottish recruits were justas illiterate as the Irish recruits. The boy who had been four or five years away from school had generally forgotten even how to read and write, and Irish recruits were not peculiar in the matter. No doubt the system of education in Ireland is not all it ought to be, but it is better than it would be if a certain Bill now before the other House were passed into law. I think the noble Lord who initiated this discussion, and to whom we are indebted for the persistence with which he raises the question, may content himself that we have advanced a step this evening. I do not propose to offer any further remarks before I have had an opportunity of reading the document which is to be laid on the Table, and from which I anticipate we shall derive some interesting reading. I hope my noble friend Lord Monkswell will keep his eye on that document, and return to the charge later in the session.

LORD MONKSWELL

My Lords, I agree with the noble Earl that we have got a step further. The sum included in this year's Estimates—£2,500—is not large, but it is certainly an advance on the amount previously provided. The War Office circular contemplated that there should be an advisory committee in every district, but up to the present that had not been done. The noble Earl said he was not prepared to express any opinion on the question of compulsion. I would point out that Sir Edward Ward's Committee did give a very decided opinion on that subject, and if you do not go in for compulsion you are not carrying out the most important recommendation of the Committee. The experiment at Woolwich which was cited on a former occasion as showing that the men would not learn a trade, I found on inquiry had been carried out in such a way that success was impossible. The classes were absolutely unfitted for the soldier, and no trouble was taken to see that the soldier could attend the classes. The noble Earl the Under-Secretary brought forward another point which I answered in November last. It is not the fact that trade unions object to this teaching. I went to the fountain-head in regard to that matter and saw Mr. Crooks, M.P., who stated that what they objected to was giving the soldier preferential employment. But, notwithstanding this, commanding officers continue to press for preferential treatment. There may be trade unions that are foolish enough to object, but I am certain that if the question was properly put to the working classes they would be very glad that their fellow-citizens who enlist in the Army should be taught a trade.

On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.