HL Deb 06 June 1907 vol 175 cc804-6

Order of the Day read for resuming the debate on the Motion for the Second Reading.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

My Lords, having moved the adjournment of the debate the other day I wish to say a word or two with reference to the Memorandum which has been laid on the Table and for which I asked. This Memorandum, I presume, is intended as an explanation of the contents of the Bill, but I would call the attention of the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, who is responsible for the Memorandum, to the fact that it does not correctly represent the contents of the Bill. It is stated in this Memorandum that— Any Provisional Order will require confirmation by Parliament, and the parties interested in the river will therefore, in addition to the consideration of their views by a Government Department, have as a further protection the right to petition against the Order and appear before a Committee. From that, of course, one would naturally suppose that the Provisional Order would have to be presented, and that the parties objecting would have an opportunity of being heard, but that is not what is in the Bill. If your Lordships will look at Clause 4 of the Bill you will see that it provides that— The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, if they consider that a prima facie case is made out by the applicants for the making of an order under this Act, shall hold a local inquiry (of which due notice shall be given) by an inspector or other officer of the Board, who shall report the result of his inquiry to the Board, and the, if satisfied of the propriety of making an order, shall prepare a draft, and shall once in each of two successive weeks notify the making of the draft order in some newspaper in general circulation within the area to which the draft relates, and the notification shall specify the place where copies of the draft can be inspected and obtained, and the time within which and the manner in which notices of objection to the draft are to be sent to the Board. The Board may, if they think it expedient, hold a local inquiry— that is a second local inquiry— by an inspector or other officer of the Board with respect to any objections made to the draft order, and shall, after considering all such objections, and the report of the officer who held the inquiry (if any) thereon, settle the order. That gives to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries absolute power to settle the Order in any way it likes. Clause 5 of the Bill proceeds— The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may submit to Parliament for confirmation any provisional order made by them in pursuance of this Act. Then it is provided by Subsection (2) that if, while the Bill confirming any such Order is pending in either House of Parliament, a petition is presented against any Order comprised therein, the Bill, so far as it relates to such Order, may be referred to a Select Committee. But a person objecting to the Provisional Order will have absolutely no power in the matter. In the first place it rests with the Board itself as to whether a Provisional Order is introduced at all, and if it is introduced, the Board may place it before Parliament and Parliament may appoint a Select Committee. The noble Earl will sec that that is entirely different from what is stated in the Memorandum. I merely call attention to this now because in Committee, if nobody else does, I shall move the insertion of words to put that right.

EARL CARRINGTON

I think I can explain the matter to the noble Earl. The Bill will work in this way. Under Clause 3 there is an application to the Board for a Provisional Order. Then comes a local inquiry, which is followed by the preparation and deposit of the draft of the Provisional Order by the Board, thereby affording opportunity for objection. Then there is a further local inquiry, if necessary, to consider objections.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

But it is permissive.

EARL CARRINGTON

After that there is the completion of the Provisional Order and its submission to Parliament. Of course, if any objection is lodged the same procedure is followed as usually applies to opposed private Bills. I have spoken to the draftsmen on the point raised by the noble Earl. Though it is a little difficult to understand, if there is a Provisional Order the people concerned will be protected in exactly the same way as in ordinary cases. The provision that the Board may submit a Provisional Order to Parliament for confirmation secures that if they do submit a Provisional Order the parties are protected in exactly the same way as in ordinary cases.

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

But supposing they do not?

EARL CARRINGTON

There is nothing new in this. It works out exactly on the old lines. But if the word "shall" were substituted for the word "may," as the noble Earl wishes, it would be compulsory to have a Provisional Order in all cases.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

Then the statement in the Memorandum is not correct?

EARL CARRINGTON

Yes, it is perfectly correct.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

Then I do not understand it, but I will raise the point when we reach the Committee Stage.

On Question, Bill read 2, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

House adjourned at Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.