LORD MONTEAGLE Of BRANDONrose to call attention to the Report of the Viceregal Commission on Poor Law Reform in Ireland, and to move, "That in the opinion of this House the Irish 1106 Poor Law system demands the immediate attention of His Majesty's Government with a view to its reform. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am sorry to have to call the attention of the House from the entertaining subject of sheep valuation in Scotland to the more sombre question of Irish Poor Law reform; but I trust, at any rate, that I need make no apology to the House for introducing this subject to your notice, as its importance cannot be denied. The particular reason for my bringing it on at this moment was a resolution recently passed by the South Dublin Union begging a society connected with this subject, the Irish Workhouse Association, of which I am president, to bring the matter before Parliament, and as the Report of the Viceregal Commission was presented some eight or nine months ago to both Houses of Parliament, I think it is time that some notice should be taken of it.
This Report, which I think will be admitted on all hands to be an extremely important one, has hardly received, even in Ireland, the attention which it deserves, and up to the present time it has received no attention beyond a passing question or two, from either House of Parliament. I conclude my Notice with a Motion urging this matter on the attention of the Government, but I may fairly assume that the Irish Government, at all events, have considered this Report without any prompting from me. I hope we may now hear some definite pronouncement from the Government as to their intentions in the matter. It is difficult, in dealing with a question which one has greatly at heart, to be as brief as is becoming, perhaps, but I shall endeavour not to trespass unduly upon the patience of the House. I shall try to treat the question in a broad fashion and not to go unnecessarily into details, although the details in this matter are of extreme importance.
I will leave matters of details to noble Lords who will follow me in the debate, and will give a brief account, in the first place, of the existing state of affairs revealed in the Report, and then consider the particular proposals made by the Commissioners for dealing with that state of things. What are the classes that have to be dealt with in this matter and what are their numbers? There are some 45,000 indoor paupers in Ireland, and it 1107 is with indoor paupers mainly that the Report deals. Of these nearly one-third are hosptital sick, about 14,500; nearly another third, about the same number, are aged and infirm; there are 6,000 children, 3,500 lunatics and sane epileptics, 2,000 unmarried mothers, 1,500 casuals and vagrants, and some 3,000 other able-bodied paupers.
Setting aside the 3,000 able-bodied paupers, who are rather a miscellaneous crowd not very easily classified, there are six other classes, and when the Commissioners came to go into the matter in the light of their terms of reference they very soon found that with regard to four out of these six classes there was an almost unanimous feeling in the country that those should be dealt with apart from the workhouse. I think that is a very important and significant fact, and it naturally made a very great impression on the minds of the Commissioners. These four classes—the hospital sick, the children, the lunatics and sane epileptics, and the casuals and vagrants—embrace 25,000 out of the 45,000, considerably more than half the total, and that fact, as I say, naturally made a very great impression on the minds of the Commissioners. In order to get these out of the workhouses you must have a better system of classification. Four out of the five heads of the terms of reference to the Commission directed them to inquire, roughly speaking, into questions hinging on amalgamation of unions with the object of getting better classification. But they found that amalgamation, as a mere administrative act without legislative action, would not carry them very far and would not enable them to meet the expectation of the country in the way of reform.
I will read the passage in which the Commissioners sum up that part of the question. In regard to two of the six classes I have named the case is not quite so strong. But summing up this part of the question the Commissioners say—
We think that the present system of keeping so many different classes of persons in the same institution is one that ought not to be continued, and we received evidence throughout Ireland strongly in favour of changing the system in this respect providing that the rates would not be increased.Following up this line of inquiry, the Commissioners proceeded in their Report to make suggestions to the Lord-Lieu- 1108 tenant for legislation involving changes, many of them of a radical nature, in the Poor law and its administration, and in the course of doing so they produced an extremely weighty document in which they formulated a scheme which, for its thorough and comprehensive character and its unity and consistency of purpose, I think is remarkable among Reports of Royal and Viceregal Commissioners.As to whether there is need for reform I do not ask the House or the Government now to pronounce upon the Report in detail. Nor do I ask the Government to say what they are going to do. But I do very earnestly press upon them that the time for action has come, and that this matter ought not to be hung up any further. As the House will readily understand from the brief description I have given, the Report of the Commission embraces many far-reaching proposals and radical changes. Many of those are highly debateable, and I do not profess myself to adopt them all; but I hope that His Majesty's Government will agree that the Report does require their earnest and speedy attention, and I hope they may be prepared to deal with it next session.
I will now proceed briefly to outline the scheme proposed by the Commissioners for dealing with the present state of affairs. They describe the main feature of their proposals as —
The breaking up of the workhouse system of gathering together all the various classes of the healthy and infirm destitute poor into the same institution.This they propose to carry out in this way. The workhouse hospitals for dealing with the sick poor they propose to retain, but to retain them not as workhouse hospitals but as district hospitals; and the difference in Ireland I can assure the House is considerably more than a mere difference of name. That principle was already laid down in the Act of 1898. An enabling clause was included in that Act giving facilities for effecting this change, but that clause has not had any operation, and without some more distinct legislation I do not think it can be carried out. Then the lunatics and sane epileptics they propose should be sent to special auxiliary asylums, and the aged and infirm to almshouses, one for each county; the children they propose to board out universally, and unmarried 1109 mothers who have fallen for the first time they propose to send to religious institutions, and habitual offenders to labour colonies. There only remain the casual and vagrant class, with whom I believe my noble friend on my left is going to deal. I will only say of them that the proposal is that they should be dealt with, not under Poor Law authorities, but under a prisons board in labour colonies. Those are the main suggestions of the Commissioners, and I think it will be admitted that they are sufficiently bold and sweeping.The Commissioners anticipate a very considerable improvement in the administration of the Poor Law by these measures. They hope not only for more humane and more reformative treatment, but also for economy. I wish I could feel quite so sure about the economy as I feel about the humane and reformative treatment. But there will be elements of economy. The number of institutions will be largely decreased as well as the number of officials connected with them. That, of course, would be an element of economy; but, on the other hand, I am afraid the new machinery may not always tend to efficiency and to economy, and that in some respects their recommendations in this matter may require very careful consideration. But, taking those recommendations broadly, and the central one that there should be a bettor system of classification, I think they are welcome to all Poor Law reformers in Ireland, and I hope they will be acceptable to this House.
This brings me to almost the only serious complaint I have to make of the Report of the Commission. I regret to find that they have not dealt, as I think, at all adequately with the important question of outdoor relief. As I stated in opening, they are mainly concerned with indoor relief, but, of course, that has a very important bearing on the other class of relief. The fact, which they admit, I think, though they do not sufficiently emphasise it, is that outdoor relief, which has been on the increase during the last twenty or thirty years, and is still increasing, is a very formidable matter, and I think we must be on our guard lest any changes now introduced should increase that tendency. The Commissioners are rather severe, in their intro- 1110 ductory remarks, upon the way in which previous Commissions have ignored their predecessors, but I think that they in their turn might have followed the example of the last Committee which inquired into this question, and went most thoroughly and carefully into the subject of outdoor relief. They showed that it was then increasing, and warned the public and Parliament of what they had to expect. A great increase has taken place since the issue of that Report, and while indoor relief has remained practically stationary, outdoor relief has increased by 82 per cent., and I fear it is still increasing.
Some of the recommendations in the Report, such as the transfer of the aged and infirm to almshouses, one in each county, necessitating poor people having to go a much greater distance, must tend to increase outdoor relief. There are other suggestions for enabling widows with a single child to get outdoor relief, and also occupiers of a quarter of an acre. Both of these classes are excluded at present. Some authorities on the subject fear that those two provisions, especially the relaxation of the quarter-acre clause, might bring about a very large increase in outdoor relief. I think it will be admitted that if that result should unfortunately follow, and if outdoor relief should receive a very great stimulus and develop, even changes in the direction of better classification might be bought almost too dearly.
There is only one other matter to which I wish to allude before sitting down. The machinery which the Commissioners proposed, consequent on these considerable changes, would lead, as they themselves point out, to a considerable modification in the constitution, practice, and working of boards of guardians. Their duties would be very much reduced, and they would work rather by way of committees and by sending delegates to different joint boards representing a much larger area. The duties of boards of guardians would be very much curtailed, and that might have an effect upon the class of guardians elected, and it might also tend to reduce their efficiency. It might also tend to bring in more officials and more centralisation, which are dangers to be guarded against. I have thought it only right to call attention to these matters, which 1111 somewhat impair the high opinion I have entertained of the Report as a whole; but I wish again to repeat that this Report is, in my opinion, a valuable and weighty document, and I hope it will receive the attention of the Government with a view to immediate legislation.
§ Moved to resolve, "That, in the opinion of this House, the Irish Poor Law system demands the immediate attention of His Majesty's Government with a view to its reform."—(Lord Monteagle of Brandon.)
§ LORD CASTLETOWNMy Lords, I should like to associate myself with what has been said by my noble friend who has just sat down, than whom no one is more fitted to bring this subject to the attention of your Lordships. My noble friend has been for a number of years chairman of a voluntary association which has been engaged in looking into Poor Law questions, and he has rendered valuable service in mitigating some of the rigours of the present system. We have had a very exhaustive Report on this question, which is now quite ripe for settlement. This is no Party question; it is a social and economic question, and it is one which should be dealt with as rapidly as possible. The whole aspect of the Poor Law has changed since the time when it was first instituted, and the actual problems with which we are confronted now are totally different from those which then obtained. Now the question is undoubtedly far less complex, and it is possible to deal with it in a more humane manner.
The necessity has undoubtedly disappeared for keeping up huge workhouses. That, I think, is clearly shown by the Report, although the Commissioners do not advocate a reduction of the number of workhouses—that is, the actual destruction of them, but they suggest the utilisation of those workhouses for other purposes. I will not touch upon the four classes dealt with by my noble friend Lord Monteagle. The Commissioners are very clear as to what they advise should be done in those cases. I will take the other two classes—casuals and vagrants. I would divide them into three classes—the actual tramp; the deserving poor, who, from old age, infirmity, or ill-fortune, have failed in life and have no home; and those who 1112 have failed, also through no fault of their own, but have homes which they can maintain with the assistance of outdoor relief.
In the case of deserving poor who have homes of their own which they could maintain with the assistance of outdoor relief, it would be wise to allow them to continue in their homes. There is an equally deserving class who are homeless, and to send them to the poor-house to associate with some of the worst classes in Ireland is cruel, harsh, and unfair. These poor people deserve the greatest kindness. The suggestion of the Commission is a good one—that they should be sent to cottage homes, or what I should call homes of rest. We may be told that it would add enormously to the financial burden of the county or district if this recommendation were agreed to, but if His Majesty's Government would look into the question of the geographical distribution of the poor-houses they would find that, by utilising some of them for specific purposes—for homes of rest and for infirmaries—and by amalgamating others, the financial burden on the country would be lessened. I know of five poor-houses which are not more distant from each other than fifteen or sixteen miles. These five-poor-houses could easily be reduced to one. In olden days these institutions were placed in districts in which starvation then existed and without any regard to the geographical position; but since then the change in the distribution of population has been enormous.
As to the tramps, the Report suggests that they should, in the first instance, be sent to working farms. In Holland that has been found most effective. I think also that good might result if the houses where the tramp could spend a night were as far apart as possible, so as to reduce to a minimum the amusement of walking from one poor-house to another. If they were ineffective I would certainly try the experiment of the working poor-house. It is sometimes useful to consider the remedies of our ancestors; and I think that in the case of incorrigible tramps we might consider the question of placing them in. the stocks for an hour or two. If you make a man look eminently ridiculous it is often the last thing he wishes. I hope His Majesty's Government will 1113 deal with this problem as rapidly as possible. The matter is non-contentious. It is not a Party question; it is an economic and a social question. Many farmers and artisans suffer immensely from the presence of these tramps, and if next year the Government could bring in a Bill to deal with this evil it would be hailed with acclamation in nearly all the rural districts of Ireland.
*THE EARL OF MAYOMy Lords, the noble Earl who introduced this subject is better able to deal with it than anyone I know of in Ireland. He is the president of the Irish Workhouse Association; he has laboured in the cause of Poor Law reform, and has practical knowledge of the treatment of the poor in Irish workhouses. The Report of the Viceregal Commission and its recommendations are by some considered to be in a great measure Utopian. It is said that the recommendations are impossible to carry out, as the expense would be too great. No doubt exactly the same words were said of the Report of the Irish Royal Commissioners in 1836. It is almost uncanny to read some of the recommendations of that Commission, and to see how they have come to pass. That Commission, seventy years ago, recommended land drainage and reclamation on modern lines, the provision of labourers cottages and allotments, the bringing of agricultural instruction to the doors of the peasant, the improvement of land tenure, the transfer of fiscal powers from Grand Juries to county boards, the employment of direct labour on roads by such county boards, the sending of vagrants to colonies to be employed there or to penitentiaries, the closing of public-houses on Sundays, and the prevention of the sale of groceries and intoxicating drink in the same house for consumption on the premises. Your Lordships will recognise that nearly all these recommendations have been carried out. Those Commissioners well and truly understood the requirements of the country, and yet it has taken more than two generations to carry out many of those reforms. I trust we may move with more celerity nowadays.
To take the Viceregal Report, I admit that it is impossible to deal at once with all its recommendations. I shall not attempt to go into all of them, for your 1114 Lordships will admit that the sweeping assertion that the present workhouse system should be abolished cannot be carried out at once. We all know that the "taint of the union," as it is called, is dreaded by the poor, and if we cannot remove it altogether we can at least deal with the young, the children, and remove them from the atmosphere and surroundings of a poor-house. This can be done by the boarding-out system, of which I have had some experience in my own county. The Pauper Children (Ireland) Act, 1898, allows the boarding-out of any orphan or deserted child up to the age of fifteen, subject to the discretion of the guardians. This system has been adopted by twenty-eight unions in Ireland with signal success, and ladies' committees have been appointed by boards of guardians to visit the boarded-out children to see that they are properly looked after and cared for. I cannot do better than quote the reasons given in favour of boarding out children. The Commissioners state that the considerations in favour of this system are —
(a) The wish of the majority, as indicated by the weight of evidence, is strongly in favour of it; (b) The general opinion is that institution-reared children, when put out in the world to work for themselves, are not handy, as they have been too much used to having things done for them, and owing to the natural division of labour in a large institution they have had experience of only certain portions of work; (c) Not being used to small houses and to commonplace life, but to clockwork arrangements and to spacious rooms with suitable furniture and fittings, institution-reared children are found to be awkward and out of their element when placed among ordinary surroundings in the houses of the poor: (d) Children reared in institutions are thought to be not as tough or hardy as children brought up in ordinary houses in the country; (e) Children in workhouses are frequently contaminated and debased by their parents and by their association with disreputable inmates.In mentioning institutions I am dealing this evening with workhouses only, not reformatry schools or industrial schools. Boarding-out is, in the opinion of the Commissioners, by far the best and cheapest mode of rearing children During the financial year on which the Commissioners base their calculation a workhouse child cost about £18 9s. 4d., while a boarded-out child cost on an average £8 10s. a year in some good unions, including an average allowance 1115 of £1 10s. yearly for clothing. The Commissioners add—We think that, allowing for desirable improvements in the system, the cost of a boarded-out child might be put down at £10 a year, including clothing.It will be seen from these figures that if boarding-out were generally adopted for workhouse children there would be saved the difference between £18 9s. 4d. and £10 per annum, which latter sum is estimated as a very generous allowance for a boarded-out child. There would also be a saving of £9,108 per annum which is paid out of a Parliamentary Grant for the salaries of workhouse teachers, as where the children are boarded out they would go to the National schools. Your Lordships will remember that the Act of 1898 only allows the boarding-out of an orphan or deserted child. The Viceregal Commission received evidence in the shape of 100 witnesses in favour of empowering the local Poor Law authority to board out all above the age of infancy, or even during infancy in special cases. I trust your Lordships will allow, and the Government will admit, that I have made out a case for boarding-out and removing the children from the tainted atmosphere of the poor-house.I pass from this to the prevalence of tuberculosis in Ireland. It is no use enlarging upon the terrors of the "white plague," but I would briefly state that during the past thirty-five years the death rate from this disease in England has been reduced by one-half and in Scotland by almost the same extent, but in Ireland the deaths from tuberculosis for the year 1904 were 12,694; and I would emphasise the fact that in 1905 there were 8,204 patients suffering from this disease and being treated in the union hospitals and county infirmaries—institutions quite unsuitable for the treatment of such patients. Surely it is better to prevent people from taking the disease than to try and cure them when it has begun. In the greater part of Ireland the only hospital accommodation is the union infirmary, and owing to the want of suitable accommodation the consumptive poor in the early stages do not care to enter the infirmary. In the majority of the union infirmaries there are separate wards, but with few exceptions these are only partially isolated, the patients using the same passages, staircases, and exercise wards; while in some even this 1116 partial isolation has not been provided, although the infectious nature of the disease and the necessity for isolation are well known. In fact, these infirmaries are centres of infection, where patients go in to linger and die, and where the other inmates are exposed day by day to the risk of catching this deadly disease. I consider this a horrible state of affairs.
There are two public sanatoria in Ireland for dealing with this disease and some private ones, but there is no reason why some of the disused workhouses could not with reasonable outlay be converted into fairly suitable sanatoria. At least the dangers of infection would then be removed from the infirmaries. Two or three counties might join together and build a properly equipped sanitorium for their consumptives, and if that were done it would spread the cost over a large area. These suggestions, if carried out—and they arc suggestions of the Commission—would enable consumptives in the early stages to make use of these sanatoria instead of dreading to enter the infirmaries until too late; it would remove infection from the cottages where still many are crowded together; and it would show the poorer people that the deadly nature of the disease was recognised by the proper authorities. Cures could be affected in the earlier stages of the malady and the patient enabled to return to his work. I would ask the Government to give the authorities power to deal with these matters, which constitute only a very small item in the programme and recommendations of the Commissioners. If power were given, I feel certain that public opinion would do the rest, and these reforms would gradually and surely be carried out.
§ *THE EARL OF CREWEMy Lords, I think it must be rather a matter for regret to noble Lords from Ireland, as it, is to myself, that a question of this kind, which we must all agree is of the very first importance, should have to be dealt with in so thin a House—one that compares so unfavourably with the sort of House which we sometimes see when the question, perhaps, of police measures in Ireland is under review. I most heartily join in everything that has been said as to the complete fitness of my noble friend on the cross benches to bring forward this question. I well know how 1117 conversant he is with it, and how devotedly he has laboured on these matters.
Speaking on the general question I think we must all agree with the noble Earl opposite that nothing could be more striking than the manner in which the recommendations of the Royal Commission of 1836 have gradually been accepted. It speaks much for the foresight of the eminent gentlemen who composed that Commission, but what I am afraid it does not speak quite so highly for is the foresight of the English statesmen of that day, gentlemen like Sir George Cornewall Lewis, who possessed one of the most remarkable intellects ever placed at the service of politics in this country, but who, as the representative of the laisser faire school pure and simple, fell into the error which many politicians did at that time of imagining that there was only one set of lines on which all legislation should be conducted. It is ironically painful to read in this Report an account of how an English civil servant visited Ireland and came back at the end of six weeks with a cut and dried scheme to wipe out absolutely the greater part of the recommendations of the gentlemen who sat on that Commission. One notes in the statement of Sir G. Nicholls the extraordinary complacency with which in 1853 he pointed out that there were no beggars left in Ireland, the circumstances that they had all been starved to death years before in the great famine, or had died of the disease which accompanied that famine, being ignored.
The Report of the Viceregal Commission contains forty-three separate recommendations, of which thirty-six could be carried into effect only by legislation, while seventeen of them are most highly contentious. That leaves seven matters which could be more or less dealt with by administration. On the question of legislation I am bound to say at once that I do not think it would be right to hold out to my noble friend any hope that the subject is likely to be dealt with by a Bill next year. The very scope and size of the question naturally make it infinitely more difficult to deal with, and if we were to adopt the suggestion of the noble Earl who has just sat down that we should deal with one or two matters in connection with it, the question would arise as to 1118 what matter should be dealt with. My noble friend spoke of boarding-out; on the other hand, Lord Castletown would no doubt have us deal with tramps and vagrants; and so on. Therefore I do not like to hold out any promise at all to my noble friend, for I am afraid there is very little, if any, chance of the matter being legislatively dealt with next session.
The noble Lord who initiated this discussion, and also Lord Castletown, spoke in a very interesting manner about classification in workhouses. This is a subject which applies not only to Ireland but to the United Kingdom at large, and it is one on which public opinion has ripened to a great extent. Everybody agrees that it is monstrous that people of all ages and of every degree of desert should be huddled and herded together. But classification must always mean some, and, occasionally, considerable, extra expense. The placing of all hospitals under county committees would also require legislation. As to the treatment of lunatics, it has always been a matter of regret that so many lunatics in Ireland have been housed in the workhouses; and I am not surprised to find that with regard to children the Commissioners speak very highly of boarding out. I was for some years chairman of an English society—the State Children's Association—which has urged on boards of guardians the adoption of one of three methods—emigration, boarding out, and scattered homes in which not more than a dozen children are placed under the care of a foster mother. All those plans have been found to answer well in England. Obviously emigration is not a method we want to apply to Ireland in this connection. We should be very glad if all these children could be well brought up at home and become useful citizens; but, as regards boarding-out, I personally was a little surprised to find that it seemed to be regarded by the Commissioners as the sole and only method of dealing with these children in Ireland. In the towns, at least, I should have thought the scattered homes system would have proved as successful as in England.
Then my noble friend Lord Castletown made a very interesting speech about tramps; but, of course, he must be aware, that the whole question of forcibly dealing 1119 with vagrants and placing them in labour colonies is one which, though many think it has a good deal to recommend it, has not yet been acted upon in this country, and we know there are two very distinct schools of opinion upon it. I should be sorry to foretell the amount of Parliamentary time that would be required for a Bill dealing with all these questions. Then there is the question of outdoor relief. The Commissioners recommend the repeal of the quarter-acre occupation limit as a standard for out-door relief, but I am inclined to think that the Local Government Board of Ireland would be disposed to look with some dismay on any proposition of that kind. Outdoor relief is certainly a dangerous toy to play with, and the greatest possible consideration would be necessary before any attempt was made to deal with that side of the question.
The Commissioners next suggest that the area for outdoor relief should in future be the electoral division and not the union, and that the guardians should be empowered to strike a special rate for the purpose. That, again, seems to be a very difficult proposition. One hears of a dog being fed with his own tail and it does seem as though this were rather a similar operation, because some of the electoral divisions are very small, and the effect of rating them specially might be disastrous. I note that the Commissioners regard with approval the very interesting Report on Local Taxation of 1902. The propositions contained in that Report have always been regarded as exceedingly weighty, but it has not yet been found possible to give effect to them here; and equally the proposition that they should be included in a sort of omnibus Local Government Bill for Ireland seems to present very great difficulty indeed.
As regards this question of boundaries, upon which the Commissioners have some interesting paragraphs towards the end of their Report, it is perfectly true that no legislation for those matters would be needed; but one difficulty is this, that the Report does not contain any forecast as to what the financial results to each particular district would be if these changes in boundaries were adopted. If the localities desired that these changes should be made the Local Government 1120 Board would be perfectly willing to act upon their recommendations and suggestions; but it clearly would be necessary, first, that each local authority should hold a very careful preliminary inquiry with the special object of finding out what the precise financial effect would be, and how the charges would fall on the different districts as re-arranged. When that is done, the Local Government Board will give most careful consideration to the proposals involved.
The noble Earl Lord Mayo referred to the question of tuberculosis. No legislation is required, of course, for the erection of the sanatoria suggested; that is an administrative act, and if the localities moved in the matter the Local Government Board would no doubt raise no objection. The question of cost is an important element, and the suggestion that in some cases existing buildings might be utilised is well worth bearing in mind. My noble friend Lord Castle-town referred to the rougher method adopted by our grandfathers of placing incorrigible tramps in the stocks; I am afraid public opinion at this day is hardly likely to acquiesce in the revival of the stocks or the pillory, but, of course, it is open to my noble friend to start a crusade on the subject. I am sorry we have not been able to give brighter hopes of legislation, but I can assure the House that the Government, and particularly the Chief Secretary, are fully alive to the remarkable character of this Report and its great importance, and that we have a real desire to deal with the subject as soon as possible. My noble friend will understand from what I have said that it is not possible for us to agree to his Motion in the terms in which it is placed on the Paper, because the acceptance of the words "immediate attention" would imply that we intended to legislate next session. But if he would modify the words in some way we should be happy to accept the Motion.
THE EARL OF MEATHMy Lords, although the noble Earl has stated that His Majesty's Government cannot see their way to pass legislation on this subject next year, I think we may congratulate the noble Lord who brought forward this Motion on having obtained, I will not say an assurance, but at all events an expression of opinion, from the 1121 noble Earl that as far as improvements can be affected in the Poor Law without legislative sanction he is willing to go to that extent as regards classification.
§ *THE EARL OF CREWEI think the noble Earl has stated it rather too broadly. I merely desired to point out the matters on which improvements could be effected without legislation, but, of course, the question of cost must govern those as it does the others.
THE EARL OF MEATHI understand that as far as possible His Majesty's Government are willing, as regards classification, to introduce reforms in Ireland. Looking through the forty-three recommendations of the Commission I have picked out the most important. They are seven in number, and of them four, I think, would come under the heading of classification—namely, the removal of insane to asylums, the separation of sane epileptics from insane, the segregation of aged and infirm, and the boarding-out of children. These subjects all come under the heading of classification, and we therefore get a very long way towards what we reformers have desired for many years. I am exceedingly glad to hear that there is to be some improvement in our poor law, because this subject has been very near the hearts of all, irrespective of politics, who have taken an interest in the social condition of Ireland. It is most gratifying that no discordant note has been struck, and that there is one question connected with Ireland on which we can all agree. With regard to the treatment of tramps, some valuable hints are afforded by the methods adopted in several countries on the Continent. I do not say that we should go the full length of what Germany has done, but I do think that if those connected with the Department which deals with the Poor Law in Ireland would consider what Germany has done, some valuable hints might be forthcoming.
§ LORD ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I think that a very useful purpose has been served by this debate, and I do not think, considering the really large topics involved and the period of the session, a more sympathetic or conciliatory answer could have been expected than that 1122 which has been given by the noble Earl the Lord President. He showed that he had considered the Report, and had examined it with a view to realising the importance of the topics dealt with as well as their complexity and difficulty. It is pleasant to find that there are some subjects that can be approached without any difference of opinion from the political side. There are very few subjects in Ireland of which this can be said. It is manifest from the debate that though there are several topics on which there is almost all round agreement, there are others to which that observation cannot apply; and many of the wider questions would require legislation, and would certainly require a substantial amount of expenditure. But what we may expect is that His Majesty's Government will apply themselves, at as early a date as possible, to a consideration of the recommendations in the Report, with an earnest desire to give both administrative and legislative relief, and will consider whether they can see their way to frame a Bill which would be likely to meet with very general acceptance. I would suggest, in view of what the noble Earl stated, that my noble friend should substitute the word "early'' in the Motion for the word "immediate," which is a less drastic word, and one which the Government will no doubt accept. What is desired is that at as early a date as circumstances will admit the matter shall be dealt with. I do not think there is any reason for noble Lords to be dissatisfied with the discussion that has taken place.
LORD DENMANMy Lords, we are at one on the main question. We are all agreed that this is an admirable Report, that it contains many valuable and excellent suggestions, and that legislation must be undertaken to amend or reform the Poor Law of Ireland; and we are grateful to the noble Lord on the cross benches for having raised this question, because the more public attention is drawn to it so much the more are the hands of the Government of Ireland strengthened in the matter. I am not sure whether the noble Earl Lord Meath was correct in saying that certain matters of classification could be carried cult without legislation. I understand that the case of the segregation of inmates 1123 in separate institutions requires legislation, and that the placing of the aged and infirm in disused workhouses would also require legislation. One reason why it would be impossible for His Majesty's Government to introduce legislation next session is that there is at present sitting a Royal Commission upon Poor Law and Unemployed. It will be necessary for that Commission to consider the recommendations made in this Report, and the Government must wait for some expression of opinion from that Commission. If my noble friend Lord Monteagle will consent to the substitution of the word "early" for "immediate," the Government will accept his Motion as stating that the subject "demands the early attention of the Government."
LORD MONTEAGLE OF BRANDONI am quite willing to adopt the suggestion of my noble and learned friend Lord Ashbourne, and to substitute the word "early" for the word "immediate,'' as that appears to meet with the approval of His Majesty's Government.
§ On Question, Motion, as amended, agreed to.