EARL NELSONrose to move for a Return showing—(1) The present amount of the fund which devolved upon the Ecclesiastical Commissioners from the Church Building Commissioners on 1st January, 1857, under 19 & 20 Vict., c. 55, together with a Dr. and Cr. Account of the above fund since 31st October, 1876. (In continuation of Return No. 71A, ordered to be printed 22nd June, 1877); (2)The churches in aid of the erection of which grants or "nominal grants" have been made out of the above-named fund, with the amount of the grants in each case; the population of the district to be assigned to such churches at the time of making such grant, and the accommodation proposed to be afforded by the churches to which such grants have been made; also to specify whether the grant was actually paid, or if paid, subsequently refunded. (In continuation of Return No. 71, ordered to be printed 14th May, 1877); (3) The churches for which scales of pew rents have been fixed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners under 19 & 20 Vict., c. 104, since 3rd February, 1876, specifying in each case the total number and position of the seats authorised to be let, the rents authorised to be taken, and the total number of sittings in each church; stating also, if any such scales have been rescinded since the original scale was fixed. (In continuation of Return No. 71, ordered to be printed 14th May, 1877); (4) The churches for which scales of pew rents have been fixed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners under the Church Building Acts since 9th August, 1876, specifying in each case the total number and position of the seats authorised to be let, the rents authorised to be taken, and the total number of sittings in each church; stating also if any such scales have been rescinded since the original scale was fixed. (In continuation of Return No. 71, ordered to be printed 14th May, 1877.)
The noble Earl said: My Lords, the Return for which I move is a continuation 1084 of a Return which was made to the House some thirty years ago, and which was called for because there was a Parish Church Bill about to be brought before the House at that time, and it was essential to provide information on the subject. I am hopeful next session of bringing forward such a Bill again, and therefore it will be of importance that this Return should be made up to date. But there is another reason. It was enacted, in connection with the giving of grants from this Fund in aid of the erection of churches, that a certain number of free seats should be allotted in exact proportion, both in quantity and position, to those in respect of which pew rents were charged. The outcome of that was that for the purpose of fulfilling this condition churches were very frequently actually divided down the middle, one side being entirely free, and the other pew rented. The practical outcome of that was that the two arrangements did not very well agree, and a good many of these churches, I am happy to say, became entirely free churches; but in others there is a danger that the free seats may be encroached upon and be let as pews. According to the Act there is a regular allotment of seats and a Return made by order of the Commissioners showing exactly where each seat rented is placed and what sum is charged as rent. I believe this fund has very nearly come to an end, but nevertheless there has been no Return for thirty years, and I think it is of very great importance that we should have a Return up to date. It is only according to the scale appointed by the Commissioners that there is any sanction to let seats in churches, and those who are anxious to preserve the right of free seats are desirous that this Return should be rendered up to date to enable them to take care that no encroachments are made upon the legal rights of the people.
Moved, "That there be laid before the House a Return showing (1) The present amount of the fund which devolved upon the Ecclesiastical Commissioners from the Church Building Commissioners on the 1st January, 1857, under 19 & 20 Vict., c. 55, together with a Dr. and Cr. Account of the above fund since the 31st of October, 1876. (In continuation of Return No. 71A, ordered to 1085 be printed 22nd June, 1877); (2) The churches in aid of the erection of which grant or "nominal grants" have been made out of the above-named fund, with the amount of the grants in each case; the population of the district to be assigned to such churches at the time of making such grant, and the accommodation proposed to be afforded by the churches to which such grants have been made; also to specify whether the grant was actually paid, or if paid, subsequently refunded. (In continuation of Return, No. 71, ordered to be printed 14th May, 1877); (3) The churches for which scales of pew rents have been fixed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners under 19 & 20 Vict. c. 104, since the 3rd of February, 1876, specifying in each case the total number and position of the seats authorised to be let, the rents authorised to be taken, and the total number of sittings in each church; stating also, if any such scales have been rescinded since the original scale was fixed. (In continuation of Return No. 71, ordered to be printed 14th May, 1877); (4) The churches for which scales of pew rents have been fixed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners under the Church Building Acts since the 9th of August, 187G, specifying in each case the total number and position of the seats authorised to be let, the rents authorised to be taken, and the total number of sittings in each church; stating also, if any such scales have been rescinded since the original scale was fixed. (In continuation of Return No. 71, ordered to be printed 14th May, 1877.)"—(The Earl Nelson.)
§ *THE EARL OF CREWEMy Lords, we have no objection to giving the Return for which the noble Earl has moved.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.