§ LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUMy Lords, I rise to ask the Lord Chancellor in connection with the proposed new arrangements under the Territorial Forces Bill, Section 28 (3)— (1.) Does property, of whatever kind, now held by a commanding officer, as such, pass as a matter of course to the County Association at the date mentioned in a scheme for the establishment of the Association for that county, or what other date, e.g., suppose a commanding officer is accumulating, either by saving or from private sources, a fund for the better financing of his corps, is he in whole or part to lose the control of and the benefit from that fund; (2.) Will all subscriptions or presents given to a corps after it belongs to the Territorial Army be pooled for the benefit of the County Association, or will it be appropriated to the use of the particular corps in question; (3.) Are trustees or other persons interested in any trust debarred from the ordinary legal means of defending their property, and is their resort to the Courts, for the purpose of adjudicating on their trusts, extinguished under the latter part of Section 28 (3) (c); and (4.) In eases where an agreement or lease affecting real or personal property has been entered into benefiting a corps so long as it is a volunteer corps, does this agreement or 495 lease lapse when the corps joins the Territorial Army, and becomes a unit under it.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThe Answers to the Questions arising out of Section 28 (3) (c) of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Bill are as follows: (1.) The property now held by the commanding officer will pass to the Association if the Order in Council so provides. The date at which the transfer will take effect will be fixed by the Order in Council. In the example cited the commanding officer will lose control of the fund, but after transfer the fund will still be held for the benefit of the corps for which it was accumulated. (2.) Subscriptions and presents given after the corps has become part of the Territorial Force will be devoted to the purposes for which they are given. (3.) Until the transfer the rights of the trustees will remain unaffected; after the transfer the Association will become trustee. The powers of the Secretary of State to determine the trusts only arise after the transfer to the Association, when the former trustees will have ceased to be trustees; the powers conferred on the Secretary of State were conferred in deference to the wishes of Sir Howard Vincent, by whom the present form of paragraph (e) was proposed on behalf of the Volunteers. (4.) This is a question of the construction of the instrument under which the trust in favour of the corps was created. A corps would not be less a Volunteer corps because it became part of the Territorial Force unless the instrument expressly referred to a Volunteer corps under the existing Volunteer Acts.
§ LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUWould the Answer to Question (1.) apply to the case where there was a mixed trust—a trust of commanding officers and trustees?
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORSpeaking off-hand, I feel pretty sure it would apply. The essence of the thing is that the trust is transferred, but the purposes remain.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I do not pretend to be familiar with the feelings of Volunteer officers in respect of these affairs, but I cannot help 496 thinking that in some cases a certain amount of heart-burning may be created by the diversion contrary to the wishes, perhaps, of the donor, who may still be alive, of gifts which have very recently been made to Volunteer battalions. Of course that is a matter on which I am not able to pronounce an opinion, but if there are cases in which there is such reluctance or opposition, would it not be possible for the Government to consider the insertion of words in their Bill which would safeguard them? I have in past times been familiar with this sort of question in respect of charitable trusts. Charitable endowments recently granted are saved in most Acts of Parliament from any possibility of diversion from the intention of the donor, and that certainly was the case when the Government, to which I think the noble and learned Lord belonged, proposed to disestablish and disendow the Welsh Church. In that case it was felt that any such diversion would not only be a hardship but a very grave and serious grievance. I cannot say that that would be the case in regard, for instance, to a Volunteer drill hall, but still difficulty might arise and certain objection be felt, and I think it would be well if the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would consider whether protection could not be given in those cases.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI think the custom in the Irish Church Act and other Acts of that kind has been that beyond a certain period of time the Statute does not interfere at all, or does not interfere with quite recent gifts. I am not quite sure that that is quite the same case as this. It is a matter of justice, of course, of equity and fair play, but it is also a matter of policy, and I think the best thing would be to communicate with my right hon. friend, Mr. Haldane. I will convey to him what the noble Marquess has said, and, if my right hon. friend thinks my advice worth having, I will confer with him.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI am sure he will.